Broadside Maths! (vs Armour)

4249 Views 17 Replies 7 Participants Last post by Aethelwulf1972, Jun 22, 2013

VampireCabbage

Discussion Starter · Jun 13, 2013 (Edited)

So, in one of the army list threads, someone stated that HRR broadsides were more effective against flyers than HYMP broadsides...

This is not what I expected - I would expect HRR to be more effective against av14 (duh), them to be about level at AV13 and HYMP to be better at av12 and below. HRR is about pens, HYMP is about HP attrition. so I decided to crank out some mathhammer!

I used the calculator found here: http://mathhammer40k.com/shooting/armor

I've ignored the 'chance to destroy' column because it doesn't seem to take HP attrition into account and is only about penetrating hits (i.e. removing 6HPs was still only 60ish% to destroy)

3 x HRR:

# Hits	AV	Pens	Glances	HP Removed	% to destroy
2.25	10	1.5	0.375	1.875	62.5%
2.25	11	1.125	0.375	1.5	53.1%
2.25	12	0.75	0.375	1.125	37.5%
2.25	13	0.375	0.375	0.750	18.8%
2.25	14	0	0.375	0.375	0%

3 x HYMP:

# Hits	AV	Pens	Glances	HP Removed	% to Destroy
9	10	4.5	1.5	6	55.8%
9	11	3	1.5	4.5	42.1%
9	12	1.5	1.5	3.0	23.6%
9	13	0	1.5	1.5	0%
9	14	0	0	0	0%

So, HYMP is clearly superior at AV12 and below and will destroy things (as expected) with Hull Point attrition

At AV13, HYMP is superior at HP Attrition, but HRR balances this out with the fact that it can penetrate (and therefore straight up destroy it)

And obviously at AV14 HRR out performs - though it can only remove HPs

If you want to consider a jink save (or a helldrake's Inv save), simply multiple each figure by 2/3

EDIT:

How about... broadsides with EWOS shooting at fliers that arrive from reserve (no velocity tracker), relatively common setup for them

HRR:

# Hits	AV	Pens	Glances	HP Removed	% To Destroy
0.917	10	0.691	0.153	0.764	30.6%
0.917	11	0.458	0.153	0.691	22.9%
0.917	12	0.306	0.153	0.458	15.3%

HYMP:

# Hits	AV	Pens	Glances	HP Removed	% To Destroy
0.917	10	1.833	0.611	2.444	28.2%
0.917	11	1.222	0.611	1.833	19.8%
0.917	12	0.611	0.611	1.222	10.2%

Statistically speaking, HYMP is 3 times as powerful as the HRR in this instance

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1 - 18 of 18 Posts

VampireCabbage

Discussion Starter · #2 · Jun 13, 2013 (Edited)

Thought I'd throw in some 'vs infantry' stattage as well... (I dont expect any surprises here, I think HYMP will outperform HYMP at every level)

Unit	T	Armour	HRR Unsaved Wounds	HYMP Unsaved Wounds
GEQ	3	5+	1.875	7.5
MEQ	4	3+	1.875	2.5
TEQ	4	2+/5++	1.25	1.25
Riptide/Dreadknight	6	2+/5++	1.25	1
Riptide with Nova Shield	6	2+/3++	0.625	1
MC/Wraithguard	6	3+	1.875	2
Wraithlord/Wraithknight	8	3+	1.125	1
Wraithknight with shield	8	3+/5++	0.75	1

Well, I was wrong when taking some targets into consideration...

Riptide Equivalent and unshielded wraithknight/wraithlord

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VampireCabbage

Discussion Starter · #3 · Jun 13, 2013

So, in conclusion.

When you look at the full range of targets available, why would you ever take HRR over HYMP?

Some disclaimers:
I've ignored the additional weapon, as it could be taken on either, same for skyfire

I've also ignored cover saves as they will have the same effect on either weapon

And any ML boost is ignored also as they will boost each weapon equally (percentage-wise)

[Black] Katalyst

· #4 · Jun 13, 2013

I'm going to link this every time someone says HRR is better!

Great post!

Reactions: 1

Col. Dracus

· #5 · Jun 13, 2013

I have to agree with your looking at it for just the guns, but I still like the HRR for it's range and the Instant Death chances against multi-wound models.

With the shorter Range of the HYMP you can't hold up in a corner of the board and hit whatever you want (for the most part) like you can with the HRR. The HYMP needs to be center of your lines and pushing forward (if they are going to support units moving in to the enemy deployment zone). For this role I prefer the Missile Crisis Suites, they may lack the 2+ armor and the Twin-linked, but for me their mobility and lower cost off set that. The enemy can't shoot what they can't see when the Crisis Suites jump back behind a building.

just as a finisher both the HYMP and the HRR are good, I think it just depends on how you plan to use them.

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Blevsta

· #6 · Jun 13, 2013 (Edited)

Wow. Damn math! Now I have to remodel my Broadsides! Thanks for the breakdown VC.

I just used the same tool and took the Hull Points into consideration for the following numbers (if target hull points = 3). Even after 2 rounds of firing the HYMP is better. It becomes 100% destroy chance for AV 13 and the HRR is only 37.6%

HRR:---Chance to destroy
AV10---62.5
AV11---53
AV12---37.5
AV13---18.8
AV14---0

HYMP: Chance to destroy
AV10---100
AV11---100
AV12---100
AV13---0%
AV14---0%

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Cortez

· #7 · Jun 13, 2013

Yeah, I appreciate HYPM dish out good anti AV12< but they are also at a lot more risk. The reason HRR work so well is that they can stay out of range with 2 wounds & a 2+ save. AP1 AT 60" is amazing- something that not many-if any other army has.

HYMP 36" which isn't bad but it puts them in target range to be killed- which they will be. ( happens fairly often, despite cover+ supporting gun line)

HRR are equal to HYMP because they are more durable in the sense that you can hide on the other side of the planet and still shoot a night scythe from the sky with relative ease.

Skarsgard

· #8 · Jun 14, 2013

The AP of the HRR is of note, when it pentrates it does horrible things. I prefer the extra range myself.

Blevsta

· #9 · Jun 14, 2013

Skarsgard said:
The AP of the HRR is of note, when it pentrates it does horrible things. I prefer the extra range myself.

The Chance to Destroy numbers I posted above include the AP modifiers. Sadly it's not even close. If you're buying a broadside to destroy vehicles the only reason to use a HRR is the additional range.

VampireCabbage

Discussion Starter · #10 · Jun 14, 2013

It comes down to a simple risk vs reward question...

"Am I willing to risk my Broadsides being closer to the enemy in order to reap the reward of being more efficient at killing stuff?"

Personally, I'd almost always answer yes

VampireCabbage

Discussion Starter · #11 · Jun 14, 2013

Blevsta said:
I just used the same tool and took the Hull Points into consideration for the following numbers (if target hull points = 3). Even after 2 rounds of firing the HYMP is better. It becomes 100% destroy chance for AV 13 and the HRR is only 37.6%

Just as a side note, with something like dice rolling, it won't be 100%, there is always a chance of rolling 12 1's twice to hit - its a very small chance, but its there

VampireCabbage

Discussion Starter · #12 · Jun 14, 2013

Added another set of stats to the first post, this time its Broadside with EWOS vs an incoming flyer

Skarsgard

· #13 · Jun 14, 2013

Blevsta said:
The Chance to Destroy numbers I posted above include the AP modifiers. Sadly it's not even close. If you're buying a broadside to destroy vehicles the only reason to use a HRR is the additional range.

The post has HP removed not "destroyed" results. The AP doesn't remove any more HP but it does help put it down for good. I am not saying the HRR is a must have, but it mildly misleading to skew the results in favour of the argument you wish to make. In a HP vs HP analysis the HYMP comes off quite good but unless you are target locking the unit you are still only shooting at one target. If you take target lock, you are not taking EWO or Velocity Tracker.

So does it matter if you destroy a target by knocking off 6 HP or by doing a couple of penetrating hits? Not really. It helps against squadrons, sure.

IMO both weapons have their uses, what you really need to look at is what is in the rest of your list. If you have lots of missile pods then do you need more str 7 shooting? Or is the AP better against all these big tough walker types (monsterous creatures) starting to pop up? Or, if you have little to no str 7 then by all means take them.

I am not trying to play devils advocate here, I just think that math hammering a unit in isolation with parameters that don't translate into the game as misleading.

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[Black] Katalyst

· #14 · Jun 15, 2013

Skarsgard said:
I am not trying to play devils advocate here, I just think that math hammering a unit in isolation with parameters that don't translate into the game as misleading.

I can agree with most of what you're saying to an extent, I'm still a HYMP fan, but I'm not seeing where this quote is coming from. He covered 90+% of all targets in the game including flyers, every armor stat, and the majority of unit types. How is this isolating the parameters of a unit? I'm by no means trying to flame your thoughts, moreover trying to see your side of things to help me be a better player.

Blevsta

· #15 · Jun 15, 2013

Skarsgard said:
The post has HP removed not "destroyed" results. The AP doesn't remove any more HP but it does help put it down for good.

Listen, I'm as surprised by the results as you are. I figured an AP1 shot with S8 would still be better against armor. Look at the HRR column I listed (my percentages, not the original post). Those percentages ARE the destroy results for penetrating hits + AP1. The HYMP destroy results I just used the HP removal. It would be even more deadly if I included penetrating hits. AV 10-12 is statistically dead every time. As VC mentioned, your dice can make that not happen, but we're talking averages here. Not exactly 100% but averages are what we should aim for.

AV13 with HRR: HP removed each turn: .75. Turn 1 = 18.8%. Turn 2 = 37.6% chance.
AV13 with HYMP: HP removed each turn: 1.5. Turn 1 = 0%. Turn 2 = good chance it's dead.

So, I guess there's one more benefit to HRR. If you've only got 1 turn to fire on something that's AV13 the HRR is the only one that can possibly destroy it. Considering after 2 turns you're still likely to have failed to kill it, I'd count on the HYMP even for AV13.

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Skarsgard

· #16 · Jun 16, 2013

Fair enough I stand corrected.

VC I appologise for any offense that may have been given in my post.

VampireCabbage

Discussion Starter · #17 · Jun 17, 2013 (Edited)

Skarsgard said:
VC I appologise for any offense that may have been given in my post.

No offence at all dude

I've added the % to Destroy column back to the original post (for vs armour) now that I understand what it is...

Its the chance that the vehicle will be destroyed by any penetrating hits (i.e. a 4+ on the damage chart for the HRR or a 6 for a HYMP)

This doesn't take into consideration the vehicle being destroyed by hull point attrition, but after consideration and the comments, I think its worth adding it to the stats

I'd quite like to find some way of combining the two destroy chances - i.e. destroy via pen + HPs but I think thats a bit beyond me

Aethelwulf1972

· #18 · Jun 22, 2013

I have to say after reading this thread, I am a fan of the stats posted for they HYMP but i am still sooooo not a fan of the look of the model with the HYMP lol. but then av12+ is why I run hammerheads anyway... and let's keep in mind that most vehicles have armor 10 on the back and that is what i have been trying to use to my advantage for vehicle killing... getting something to the back armor for an easier kill, ie crisis or stealt suits deep striking (or outflanking in the case of stealths) to open up on rear armor.

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