Broadside Maths! (vs Armour)

4241 Views 17 Replies 7 Participants Last post by Aethelwulf1972, Jun 22, 2013

VampireCabbage

Discussion Starter · Jun 13, 2013 (Edited)

So, in one of the army list threads, someone stated that HRR broadsides were more effective against flyers than HYMP broadsides...

This is not what I expected - I would expect HRR to be more effective against av14 (duh), them to be about level at AV13 and HYMP to be better at av12 and below. HRR is about pens, HYMP is about HP attrition. so I decided to crank out some mathhammer!

I used the calculator found here: http://mathhammer40k.com/shooting/armor

I've ignored the 'chance to destroy' column because it doesn't seem to take HP attrition into account and is only about penetrating hits (i.e. removing 6HPs was still only 60ish% to destroy)

3 x HRR:

# Hits	AV	Pens	Glances	HP Removed	% to destroy
2.25	10	1.5	0.375	1.875	62.5%
2.25	11	1.125	0.375	1.5	53.1%
2.25	12	0.75	0.375	1.125	37.5%
2.25	13	0.375	0.375	0.750	18.8%
2.25	14	0	0.375	0.375	0%

3 x HYMP:

# Hits	AV	Pens	Glances	HP Removed	% to Destroy
9	10	4.5	1.5	6	55.8%
9	11	3	1.5	4.5	42.1%
9	12	1.5	1.5	3.0	23.6%
9	13	0	1.5	1.5	0%
9	14	0	0	0	0%

So, HYMP is clearly superior at AV12 and below and will destroy things (as expected) with Hull Point attrition

At AV13, HYMP is superior at HP Attrition, but HRR balances this out with the fact that it can penetrate (and therefore straight up destroy it)

And obviously at AV14 HRR out performs - though it can only remove HPs

If you want to consider a jink save (or a helldrake's Inv save), simply multiple each figure by 2/3

EDIT:

How about... broadsides with EWOS shooting at fliers that arrive from reserve (no velocity tracker), relatively common setup for them

HRR:

# Hits	AV	Pens	Glances	HP Removed	% To Destroy
0.917	10	0.691	0.153	0.764	30.6%
0.917	11	0.458	0.153	0.691	22.9%
0.917	12	0.306	0.153	0.458	15.3%

HYMP:

# Hits	AV	Pens	Glances	HP Removed	% To Destroy
0.917	10	1.833	0.611	2.444	28.2%
0.917	11	1.222	0.611	1.833	19.8%
0.917	12	0.611	0.611	1.222	10.2%

Statistically speaking, HYMP is 3 times as powerful as the HRR in this instance

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Blevsta

· #6 · Jun 13, 2013 (Edited)

Wow. Damn math! Now I have to remodel my Broadsides! Thanks for the breakdown VC.

I just used the same tool and took the Hull Points into consideration for the following numbers (if target hull points = 3). Even after 2 rounds of firing the HYMP is better. It becomes 100% destroy chance for AV 13 and the HRR is only 37.6%

HRR:---Chance to destroy
AV10---62.5
AV11---53
AV12---37.5
AV13---18.8
AV14---0

HYMP: Chance to destroy
AV10---100
AV11---100
AV12---100
AV13---0%
AV14---0%

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Blevsta

· #9 · Jun 14, 2013

Skarsgard said:
The AP of the HRR is of note, when it pentrates it does horrible things. I prefer the extra range myself.

The Chance to Destroy numbers I posted above include the AP modifiers. Sadly it's not even close. If you're buying a broadside to destroy vehicles the only reason to use a HRR is the additional range.

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Blevsta

· #15 · Jun 15, 2013

Skarsgard said:
The post has HP removed not "destroyed" results. The AP doesn't remove any more HP but it does help put it down for good.

Listen, I'm as surprised by the results as you are. I figured an AP1 shot with S8 would still be better against armor. Look at the HRR column I listed (my percentages, not the original post). Those percentages ARE the destroy results for penetrating hits + AP1. The HYMP destroy results I just used the HP removal. It would be even more deadly if I included penetrating hits. AV 10-12 is statistically dead every time. As VC mentioned, your dice can make that not happen, but we're talking averages here. Not exactly 100% but averages are what we should aim for.

AV13 with HRR: HP removed each turn: .75. Turn 1 = 18.8%. Turn 2 = 37.6% chance.
AV13 with HYMP: HP removed each turn: 1.5. Turn 1 = 0%. Turn 2 = good chance it's dead.

So, I guess there's one more benefit to HRR. If you've only got 1 turn to fire on something that's AV13 the HRR is the only one that can possibly destroy it. Considering after 2 turns you're still likely to have failed to kill it, I'd count on the HYMP even for AV13.

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