[Nell2ThaIzzay]

The title is pretty much self explanatory.

A friend of mine argues that since it happens during the shooting phase, that the Banshee could not howl against a target in close combat (unless specifically stated, I.E. the Banshee can howl against units she is in close combat with), and unless you are Skaven, it is illegal to target units that are engaged in close combat with shooting attacks. Because it is stated as an attack that happens during the shooting phase I happened to agree with him.

But I just recently heard something that it doesn't count as a shooting attack, even though it's during the shooting phase, and may howl against enemies engaged in close combat. Is this the case?

 

[Big_Canadian]

unless stated otherwise in the banshee rules I would play with it so she CAN NOT shoot into close combat... thats just me though other might play the other way. But if it does not say specifically that she can or can't shoot into combat I go back to the default rules and saythat she cant

 

[DarkLordJim]

Answer

The rules for the banshee's Ghostly Howl attack specifically state that it can be used whilst the banshee is in close combat, but only against the unit she is in combat with. The attack is carried out in the Shooting phase as normal, and it does not count towards combat resolution. Check the Vampire Counts army book to see what I mean.

Cheers,
DLJ

 

[Big_Canadian]

no. he already knows that he can shoot while HE is in combat but his question is can the banshee shoot INTO combat not her own. read above to see what I said

 

[danceman]

she can howl at any unit(even individual characters if outside units) within 8 if she herself isnt in close combat, if she couldnt howl at units in combat it wouldnt have said "any unit withint 8".
target restrictions for the howl only apply if she is in combat herself.

so yes you could howl at his unit in that particular case.

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

unless stated otherwise in the banshee rules I would play with it so she CAN NOT shoot into close combat... thats just me though other might play the other way. But if it does not say specifically that she can or can't shoot into combat I go back to the default rules and saythat she cant

See, that's what my friend said, and at first I was inclined to agree with him.

But on another forum I am on, in a thread unrelated to the Banshee, her being able to shoot into close combat came up as an example for comparrison for another rule. I stated that she was unable to howl into close combat, but someone replied to me saying that I was incorrect. I asked him for a clarification on the rule, but I haven't gotten it yet.

I mentioned it to my friend, since we played a game today, about what I heard that the Banshee can target units in close combat, but he still thinks that the person who said that was wrong. He says that since it specifically states that she can howl against units she is in close combat with, and that it doesn't specifically state she can target into close combat otherwise, that she cannot. He did say, however, that he could see where the ruling could come from, and would be open to that possibility, be he wants a little more solid proof from the rules themself that would indicate that the Banshee could indeed target a unit engaged in combat.

 

[DarkLordJim]

Whoops

Beg pardon, I didn't read the question properly!

With regard to the real question: Yes, a banshee can howl into a close combat that she is not involved in. My reasoning behind this: the rules say "any unit within 8 inches", and not "any unengaged unit within 8 inches" as is the case with other spells and abilities such as the Curse of Years. Any unit within 8 inches means any unit within 8 inches, as far as I am concerned, regardless of their state on the battlefield.

Cheers,
DLJ

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

Well, I suppose that the difference is, with the Ghostly Howl being a shooting attack, as it happens during the shooting phase, it should be known that it couldn't target an engaged unit because the Warhammer rules specifically state that you can't shoot into close combat, whereas spells don't count as shooting attacks, unless they are magic missles, therefore can be legally targeted on engaged units (unless stated, as is the case with Curse of Years)

That would be the logic of my friend, who, again, at least at first I tended to agree with. But I could see how this ruling could go either way, so I guess what I'm looking for is, what could prove to him that the Banshee could howl into combat? He is a member of these boards, so I can show him this thread when I see him next, and let him see all of your opinions, but I just know that he'd like to see some kind of proof from the rules that would indicate that it could howl into combat (I.E. something that would state that it doesn't count as a normal shooting attack, therefore "any" unit applies to any unit, not any legal unit, which is his understanding of the "any unit within 8" " wording.) So it's not that I don't trust your guys' opinion or anything like that, it's just that he even told me today that he'd be open to playing that way, but only if he could find some compelling evidence that supports it.

 

[danceman]

it is stated.

it says ANY unit and that oddly enough means _any_ unit within 8.

if you could not target units within 8 whom is in combat it would say "any unengaged unit within 8".

it is not an opinion, its as clear as day.

Nell2ThaIzzay: you are correct in one thing one cannot shoot into close combat, however skaven can. the reason? special rules in their entry. if the core rules for targetting would apply it wouldnt not have been mentioned that you can infact target _any_ unit within 8.
infact, the howl ignores pretty much every targetting rule for shooting.

hope this clears it out

 

[Big_Canadian]

agreed. I agree with danceman he had explained it properly and it does say ANY unit within 8" so I back him up in saying that YES it can shoot into all combat

 

[King Ulrik Flamebeard]

Q. Can a Banshee shout into close combat she isn’t
participating in?

A. She can target any one unit in range; no exceptions are
listed.
S. Warhammer Chronicles 2004 page 116

There, sorted.

KU

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

There, sorted.

KU

That'd be exactly the kind of thing my friend would be looking for, thanks.

Now if I may just ask where I might find this Direwolf FAQ. Is it on the official Games Workshop website?

 

[King Ulrik Flamebeard]

Here -

http://www.geocities.com/mi_whplayers/dwfaq.html


KU

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

Thank you for the source. The way the rules are worded in the rulebook, I was under the impression that "any unit" meant any legal unit, as stated by the normal shooting rules, with the stated exceptions to those rules (I.E. being able to target a lone character or model within 5" of a unit that normally couldn't be targetted by shooting)

My friend's opinion was that since they stated one exception to the rule, but not another, that it couldn't target into close combat, and I happened to agree with him. But now I know that we were both mistaken. Thanks again for that source.