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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
The title says it all : can Ork trukks kareen off the table ? It came up in a game, we diced for it, no problem. But I'd like to know for future games.
 

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Well, one school of thought (the one I agree with) says that you may not. You can reference the Ramshackle Rule's use of the phrase "as far as possible". Many believe that there is no legal way to move off the board, except through falling back, but even then you are not moving off the board, because reaching the board edge was the issue, not actually moving beyond. Anyway...

This is just one way of looking at it, I could be wrong, so let's see what our more prominent Rules Lawyers think.
 
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Charitably Tables People
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What psichotyk said. You cannot "move" off the table. You do not even fall back off the table - you simply are removed from play when you reach the table edge.

You cannot move to where there is no board, so you stop at the edge.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
OK, seems fair and consistent with other rules.

Thanks v much
 

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Dark Eldar Zealot
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Hi,
This was done to death over at Warseer and the conclusion was that Trukks that kareen off the table are destroyed.

Sorry to chuck a spanner in the works guys!

Now before this one gets heated please accept that at the moment my new Ork Codex is at home but I thought that the “Kareen” rule stated something like “continues to move out of control until it hits another unit or terrain…….”

So if some one could paraphrase the Kareen rule we can immediately move forward on this but I believe that since the Trukk is “out of control” the Ork player is not moving anything off the table – the trukk is doing it all by itself.

Its just that the only reference to being destroyed by moving towards the table edge is in the “Fall Back” rules but its horribly consistent to claim that anything that crosses that event horizon suffers the same fate.

Cheers.
 

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Charitably Tables People
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The rule does not say continues to move out of control until it hits.

It states that it goes out of control to explain the fluff of what is happening.

Then it states that you should "Move the trukk 3d6" as far as possible in a random direction. Then apply the kaboom! result. If the Trukk would careen into an enemy models or terrain, stop it 1" away."

That is not a perfect quote. I ommitted a parenthetical about what happens if you roll a hit on the scatter dice so that I am not perfectly copy/pasting.

In short, the Trukk goes Kaboom one way or another. You cannot move it off the table, there's nowhere off the table to move to. So, as soon as you hit the end, you've moved as far as possible, and so Kaboom at the table edge. It's pretty cut and dry.

I'm sure tons of semantics games could be played regardless. It does not "fall back move." Vehicles can't fall back anyway. Is there any other way to move off the table? If not, seems easy to me. AFAIK you can't leave the table except by fall back or being destroyed, or by some special rule that says "if xyz happens and takes you off the table edge, you're lost."
 

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Dark Eldar Zealot
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The rule does not say continues to move out of control until it hits.

It states that it goes out of control to explain the fluff of what is happening.

Then it states that you should "Move the trukk 3d6" as far as possible in a random direction. Then apply the kaboom! result. If the Trukk would careen into an enemy models or terrain, stop it 1" away."

That is not a perfect quote. I ommitted a parenthetical about what happens if you roll a hit on the scatter dice so that I am not perfectly copy/pasting.

In short, the Trukk goes Kaboom one way or another. You cannot move it off the table, there's nowhere off the table to move to. So, as soon as you hit the end, you've moved as far as possible, and so Kaboom at the table edge. It's pretty cut and dry.

I'm sure tons of semantics games could be played regardless. It does not "fall back move." Vehicles can't fall back anyway. Is there any other way to move off the table? If not, seems easy to me. AFAIK you can't leave the table except by fall back or being destroyed, or by some special rule that says "if xyz happens and takes you off the table edge, you're lost."
Ah, ok I agree, I thought that some one was revving up to claim that the Trukk would survive at the tables edge.

Good conclusion, thanks.

P.S. Would Sky Leap be classed as "moving off the table?"
 

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Fun guy from Yuggoth
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Ah, ok I agree, I thought that some one was revving up to claim that the Trukk would survive at the tables edge.

Good conclusion, thanks.

P.S. Would Sky Leap be classed as "moving off the table?"
My understanding was that skyleap was more like "going back into reserve". You remove the model from the board, but it's not really the same as moving off the table edge.
 

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Dark Eldar Zealot
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My understanding was that skyleap was more like "going back into reserve". You remove the model from the board, but it's not really the same as moving off the table edge.
Well if you are not “on” the table the only other alternative is “off” the table but this is splitting hairs here.

I am going to let this one die, Cheers.
 

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Sparta!
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For skyleap, you do take the models off the table, they are allowed to re-enter though - that's the special bit.
As for the trukk careening off the table - yes it is possible (at least that was the final consensus from warseer). The only specifications in the ork dex mention enemy troops and impassable terrain. The board edge is neither, and although you cannot voluntarily move off it (well, you can, but there really isn't a point), careen isn't a voluntary move.
It is, from what I remember of that discussion, treated as a Deep Strike that scattered off the table - same result, which is fair enough.
 

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Charitably Tables People
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Why is it treated as a Deep Strike? Where does that rationale come from?

The table edge is as far as you can move. You cannot make additional movement off the table edge, nor can anything occur off the table (such as a Kaboom result, which must be applied per the rule). In precedented rules of similar nature (INCLUDING deep strike) there is a point made of what happens to you if you move off the table. You are not permitted to move off the table unless a rule says you can. Permissive rules set. In this case, there is no such rule. You stop at the edge, b/c you cannot move further. It's just not possible to move where the table isn't, and the rule says you move as far as possible. It does not say you move off the table edge if that is included.

If you scatter OFF the table edge, you come down nowhere, and deep strike rules clarify that you are lost. Trukk Kareem rules do not. Anyway.
 

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Why is it treated as a Deep Strike? Where does that rationale come from?
Indeed, we already know it's unlike DS in a number of ways. For instance, when DSing, if your model will come within 1" of an enemy model, it is destroyed. By contrast, the Trukk stops short. Thus if we're to draw conclusions from the Deep Strike rules, I would conclude that the Trukk also stops short of the table-edge.

Furthermore, the phrase "as far as possible" indicates to me that it would simply stop at the table edge, since it's not possible to move off the table, voluntarily or not. It's possible to fall back to the table edge and be removed, which is a different scenario with rules governing it.

There's my 2 cents, anyhoo.

-H
 
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Sparta!
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You are not permitted to move off the table unless a rule says you can. Permissive rules set.
Likewise, permissive rules set the only thing that stops the vehicle is enemy troops or impassable terrain - board edge is neither. I'm only telling you what I remember the general consensus being over at warseer, personally I can't see the problem with it.
If you really want to keep this discussion going I suggest heading over there and looking at that thread, there are extensive arguments for and against.
There really is no point in reproducing the same argument and raising the same points here.
 

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Some food for though:

1. Nowhere that I can find does it state that you can not move off the board edge (If I'm wrong, please give me a page reference or a link to an OFFICIAL FAQ).

2. I know Regrouping is a different situation all together, but it's the closest reference to moving off the board egde I could find (especially wiht the Designers Note):
Page 49
"LEAVING THE BATTLE
Once a unit reaches teh table edge, it is considered to have left the immediate battle and may not return. Note that there is no need for individual models to in teh unit to move "off" the table - once a model reaches the edge, that unit is gone! The unit takes no further part in the battle and is removed, doubtless spreading tales of the unstoppable nature of the foes they were facing to their compatriots behind the front lines.
Designer's Note: This is a purposefully harsh ruling to discourage players hugging table edges too closely with their forces instead of getting into the thick of the action."

Yes, to me that reads "you're touching the board edge, you're gone", so no deploying right on the board edge either lol. Which to me also means "Your trukk kareened off table (or to the table edge rather) sorry, it's gone, along with all the troops inside". Yet again, please correct me if I'm wrong, and if I am, page reference or OFFICIAL FAQ would be more than appreciated.

(and thanks to all in chat at teh time that helped me find these references lol)

Cheers,
Scott
 

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Dark Eldar Zealot
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Likewise, permissive rules set the only thing that stops the vehicle is enemy troops or impassable terrain - board edge is neither. I'm only telling you what I remember the general consensus being over at warseer, personally I can't see the problem with it.
If you really want to keep this discussion going I suggest heading over there and looking at that thread, there are extensive arguments for and against.
There really is no point in reproducing the same argument and raising the same points here.
I would have to agree with all of that.

What I got out of it was that any time a compulsary action could not be carried out the unit is destroyed.

With "Kareen" we have a unit being directed to move 3D6 and if the end point of the ruler happens to be beyond the edge of the table then you can't legally complete that action.

It's the same with Deep strike, you are being directed to move 2D6 and if that end point happens to be off the table then you are deemed not to have completed a compulsary directive.

The results are the same and are achieved by the same mechanics, this is why the comparison is valid. If the model scatters off the table it is destroyed in both rulings.

Now nothing has indeed "moved" off the table because of the premeasuring and the consequences are determined well before any movement is carried out.

But like I said before, this splitting hairs here as the result of a "Kareen" is found out well before any strange anomilies in the game have a chance to crop up!

To argue otherwise really is putting the cart before the horse.

Cheers.
 

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question- where are you folks getting the idea that you can't voluntarily move off the table edge? Or that you may only do so during fall back.

To the best of my knowledge, there is nothing even remotely hinted at in the bgb about limiting movement in such a fashion. DS, fallback, other compulsury movement can all cause a model to go off the board, not to mention choosing to (gaunts without number is a wonderful thing).
 

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No Rest For the Righteous
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I was under the same impression Tarzen. I have had my Dark Eldar purposfully flee off the edge from a losing battle as a way to concede defeat and just so I could say they survived. :D

I have always seen the edge not as some invisible wall that no units can move through, but a boundary for what is in the battle and what isn't. Units move on from the edge, units move off the edge.

As stated in the rule scooter quoted, moving off the edge isnt needed to be removed. Simply touching it means the unit is gone. Since the Kareen rule says move as far as possible, and since it's possible to touch the edge, that trukk kareens off into the sunset with the twinkle of a star.
 

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Advocatus Diaboli
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To the best of my knowledge, there is nothing even remotely hinted at in the bgb about limiting movement in such a fashion.
Equally, nowhere does it say you can voluntarily move off the table.
 

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And that is correct - Kareen isn't a voluntary move. However, for some of you: no-where does it state you can't move off the edge. Though it does say "touchign the board edge causes you to disappear into the land of the fairies." Ok, maybe not in that wording...but if you guys are adamant it can't kareen off the table - fine! But follow the rules for touching the table edge then (eg. touches table edge = gone (along with all the poor orkses inside lol)). Just my input. :D

Cheers,
Scott
 
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