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I am planning on creating a Nid zilla list which will consist of rippers, lictors, zoanthropes, a dakka fex, a sniper fex a screamer killer fex and old one eye.... as well as a tyrant



Then I planned to have a shooty Tyrant which would have two venom canonns with toxin sacs and enhanced senses but when i have proxied this model it has played poorly, in the last two games it has got plenty of shots off each round and yet it has only managed to stun a rhino, immobilise a vindicator and kill around 4 marines and 3 noise marines... and so i was wondering if it would be better to take a tyrant tooled for CC I was thinking of a CC tyrant which would have bone sword, whip and scything talons ( i want wings but my moddeling skills are v.poor and a tyrant with wings would be too big and fragile for me too carry round... the sorwd is to help my CC fex's as its so depressing when my fex's die without a fight due to low I)

Any suggestions?
 

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Then I planned to have a shooty Tyrant which would have two venom canonns with toxin sacs and enhanced senses but when i have proxied this model it has played poorly, in the last two games it has got plenty of shots off each round and yet it has only managed to stun a rhino, immobilise a vindicator and kill around 4 marines and 3 noise marines... and so i was wondering if it would be better to take a tyrant tooled for CC I was thinking of a CC tyrant which would have bone sword, whip and scything talons ( i want wings but my moddeling skills are v.poor and a tyrant with wings would be too big and fragile for me too carry round... the sorwd is to help my CC fex's as its so depressing when my fex's die without a fight due to low I)

Any suggestions?

Hive Tyrant with a Twin-Linked Venom Cannon??? Ugh.
CC fex??? Sigh.

It is hard for me to give advice since you are using things that I really don't like... But, try 2 Twin-Linked Devourers on that Hive Tyrant and use her against infantry. If you want her to support your Carnifex with Catalyst, just buy it as her power, as the bone sword is a giant waste, not to mention even more fragile than the wings you are talking about.

Use Carnifexes and rending against vehicles... the Hive Tyrant just isn't very good at killing vehicles unless she flies and can get to them quickly enough.
 

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I didn't know that the Hive Tyrant was a Her...

If you want a MC in CC fast that dosn't get killed fast put wings on a Tyrant
If you want a good shooty nid platform use a Fex. Unless you want the fex to die (cuz you planed for it) don't use a CC Fex.
 

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If you want a CC tyrant than you really need to put wings on it. A walking CC tyrant is NOT a scary thing. A flying CC tyrant is. As commented above, the bone sword+lash whip is a waste of points. Even more-so with a nidzilla list. You're better off with dual scything talons.

For ranged I'd either go with a barbed-strangler, venom cannon + guard or dual twin-linked devourers.
 

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Against marines, assuming they don't walk right into combat range w/ you:

Winged CC Tyrant - Turns 1 + 2, movement (at most, turn 2 charge, but that is unlikely again unless they are flat out inviting combat). 0 dead marines.

Winged 2 twin-linked devourer Tyrant - Turns 1 + 2 shooting, and Turn 3 shooting before the charge ... 36 shots, 32 hits after re-roll, 28 wounds (about) after re-roll, 9 dead marines.

Turn 3 charge by CC (2 ST) Tyrant, Turn 3 charge after firing by devourer Tyrant (assuming both are "charging"). 6 attacks from CC Tyrant, 4 hits, 3 dead marines. 4 attacks from shooty Tyrant, 3 hits, let's even call it just 2 dead marines.

Subsequent rounds, assuming no more charges just for simplicity. Turn 3 bottom 5 attacks, ends up about 3 dead marines ... shooty is going to average 2 dead marines per combat phase. You get 2 more in 4/5/6 each, for 6 more rounds, for 18+3 (turn 3) for 21 by CC tyrant, and 12 + 2 (round 3) + 9 from shooting for shooty tyrant, for 23 by shooty tyrant. That's if the shooty tyrant doesn't continue to maul marines w/ shooting, where he keeps pace w/ the cc tyrant at the least, and also still has the advantage, for an advantage of 9 instead of an advantage of 3.

So, the best way to go, is actually a 2 twinlinked devourer tyrant with wings, and if you have to get him into combat, well he's pretty badass there also (easily superior to the close combat specialist characters of most other races, w/ no cc upgrades). Think about it - WS5, S6, A3 power weapon on a T6 W4 creature with a 2+ or 3+ save. Compare that to the tooled up close combat dudes of other races. Not too shabby.



Fexes should be ranged, for reasons discussed ad nauseum in other threads.
 

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if you want to go shooty consider takeing 2 sets of twin linked devourers with a set of wings. That allows the tyrant to get those 12 shots in much quicker in a game and also adds to his manoverability in battle. I prefer this to having him walk because I view the devourer as a short ranged weapon - and thus any advantage in speed helps.

Also - arn't all Hive Tyrants Male with the female of the species being the queen creature on the back of a dominatrix?
 

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They are neither male nor female. Hive Tyrants do not participate in any reproductive act, and so are not gifted with reproductive organs.

You can call them w/e the fawk you want. Paint it pink and give it a dress (yeah, I went there), and call it a she if you want.

I don't think you can consider Tyranids in terms of male/female. It's an asexual or at closest hermaphroditic superorganism.
 

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Against marines, assuming they don't walk right into combat range w/ you:

Winged CC Tyrant - Turns 1 + 2, movement (at most, turn 2 charge, but that is unlikely again unless they are flat out inviting combat). 0 dead marines.

Winged 2 twin-linked devourer Tyrant - Turns 1 + 2 shooting, and Turn 3 shooting before the charge ... 36 shots, 32 hits after re-roll, 28 wounds (about) after re-roll, 9 dead marines.

Turn 3 charge by CC (2 ST) Tyrant, Turn 3 charge after firing by devourer Tyrant (assuming both are "charging"). 6 attacks from CC Tyrant, 4 hits, 3 dead marines. 4 attacks from shooty Tyrant, 3 hits, let's even call it just 2 dead marines.

Subsequent rounds, assuming no more charges just for simplicity. Turn 3 bottom 5 attacks, ends up about 3 dead marines ... shooty is going to average 2 dead marines per combat phase. You get 2 more in 4/5/6 each, for 6 more rounds, for 18+3 (turn 3) for 21 by CC tyrant, and 12 + 2 (round 3) + 9 from shooting for shooty tyrant, for 23 by shooty tyrant. That's if the shooty tyrant doesn't continue to maul marines w/ shooting, where he keeps pace w/ the cc tyrant at the least, and also still has the advantage, for an advantage of 9 instead of an advantage of 3.

So, the best way to go, is actually a 2 twinlinked devourer tyrant with wings, and if you have to get him into combat, well he's pretty badass there also (easily superior to the close combat specialist characters of most other races, w/ no cc upgrades). Think about it - WS5, S6, A3 power weapon on a T6 W4 creature with a 2+ or 3+ save. Compare that to the tooled up close combat dudes of other races. Not too shabby.



Fexes should be ranged, for reasons discussed ad nauseum in other threads.
I feel like I'm picking on Brand lately on this board. Its entirely unintentional man!

We're assuming that the tyrant is operating in a vacuum here. The devourer flyrant, and close combat flyrant seem to have roughly similar performance records, as the one thing the above math fails to really indicate is the situation where the enemy brings you to grips first.

Making everything on the 'marine gunline' scale is not a healthy thing tactically. The cc flyrant serves not only as a giant engine of scaly assaulty goodness, but also as the looming threat of same, with a looming large 18 inch threat jump range everywhere he goes. Now a reasonable reply is 'Wait Spook, can't I do that anyway -after- I've shot them with the devourers,' and my respone to that is, you don't want to wipe them out that fast.

Your ideal is to crash into them, and hold with a few survivors, and wipe them out on their turn, after they've done their shooting.

Now, on the issue of the dakkaflyrant, you might be a tactical genius, you might be able to get yourself in a position to shoot the opponent, wipe him out and not recieve return fire, but even with the best save in the tyranid army, the tyrant is going to be drawing fire commensurate with his rank and status: Krak missiles, plasma and lascannons.

A tyrant in assault need not worry about such things.
A tyrant shooting, does.

It really comes down to your situation too. This is why I say they're about neck and neck on usefulness.

My only caveat though is... Either make a dakka flyrant or a cc flyrant. Don't make a cc flyrant with warp blast. You need that warp field power.
 

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I thought it fairly apparent, that the CC tyrant statistically does NOT kill many more in cc than the shooty tyrant. He gets only 2 more attacks, at the same strength and typical ws v ws issue (and to mitigate this, I often simply give any tyrant toxic miasma). Yet, at range, the dakka tyrant gets TWELVE more attacks. It's not a tough call, my friend.

Meanwhile, if your opponent is trying to come to grips with you, the dakka flyrant can stay OUT of combat and keep shooting all day long, whereas there are plenty of full enemy SQUADS (like assault squads w/ pfist sarge) that can take down a CC (or any) flyrant in melee, so there are times where you don't even want your CC tyrant in CC.

I presented A scenario, so people could see things simplistically.

Any situation you put yourself in, it's generally a better idea statistically to have something that is amazing at firing, and still VERY good in close combat, than something that can't shoot for shit, yet is not really ALL that much better in cc (66% better, but that's a misnomer, when 66% better of 2 killed marines is less than 2 more killed marines).


Also, and no offense, but as I don't see any real merit to your point, I'm not offended and don't take personally any "picking on" that you feel you are doing. It's all in good fun.


As for taking fire, I in all situations WANT people to waste fire on monstrous creatures. Keeping them in cover is pretty easy to do, and they soak fire far better than other troops (fexes and tyrants soak fire, that is). I don't build ANYTHING into my list that I can't do without, and I'm pretty assured that my opponent will have to expend more than his points value in fire to down a tyrant I'm controlling. The CC tyrant, on the other hand, has many situations where it can be totally bogged down in combat against less than its value ... and if it runs up against a few hidden pfists ...

Plus, the shooty tyrant has backup and reliability built into its nature - 12 shots that re-roll misses and wounds. A bad roll to hit with the cc tyrant and ... well, tough for you.


A final note:

You can theorycraft any number of situations, or you can play dozens or even hundreds of games w/ various options and see what the net result of performance is. I prefer the latter, and it is where my own opinions are built from.
 

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Of course the Hive Tyrant is female... Tyranids are basically very insect-like, and insects are matriarchal, aren't they? Ant Queens, bee queent, etc. Even the praying mantis female eats the male I believe, as do many species of spiders.

And the name... HIVE tyrant... Like a bee hive or other insect hive.

The Hive Tyrant is female gosh [email protected]#@[email protected]$##Q$

.
 

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huh?
The Norn Queen (definatly a she) is the head of the swarms of tyranids - she is the big head of the hive; the tyrant is the male second in command on the battle field (unless a dominatrix is present - then its mount takes over - being the femal of the hive tyrant genous -- that is not saying that they reproduce, buts its genetic past)
 

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You can theorycraft any number of situations, or you can play dozens or even hundreds of games w/ various options and see what the net result of performance is. I prefer the latter, and it is where my own opinions are built from.
As usual, trying to play devil's advocate here. And I think we're both building our positions off of experience.

I still personally see the two as fairly interchangible. And theory-crafting, despite its bad-rep, is still something I believe to be a useful design ethic as we all have different experiences revolving around those who we play with on a regular basis, and this helps us plan for the unlikely and outlier events. I don't consider Tournaments to be a really useful examination of fun use of a unit since its so 'business oriented' though.

My aim was to put a 'Your Mileage May Vary' aspect on both the CC flyrant and the Dakka style flyrant. Especially since we keep using the 'marine standard' on tactics and opponents, and I feel we need to leave that be a bit since marines clearly aren't the only folks out there.

The hidden powerfist point is important, that tends to be the death of many a dakkafex in my experience. And is indeed a major weakness of the close combat style anything in our army. Sufficient punishment to a squad through close combat though might be able to make that force fall back though. I try to avoid throwing tyrants into cc by their lonesome.

As a small aside, which has next to nothing to do with statlines. I personally find the cc tyrant more aesthetically pleasing.
 

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A good adjustment to that aesthetically pleasing bit was suggested to me by Rudy Picardo (forum member here). Took deathspitters and chopped off the tip, replacing it with the devourer part of a devourer weapon ... it's a perfect and easy fit, and gives the dakka Tyrant a much beefier appearance.

If we want to look at other army types, things remain mostly the same. Big guard squads w/ buried powerfists (or even without) are terrible for CC tyrants, especially when they have iron discipline and all that other crap, b/c you get bogged down in one cheap meaningless squad for an eternity.
 

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huh?
The Norn Queen (definatly a she) is the head of the swarms of tyranids - she is the big head of the hive; the tyrant is the male second in command on the battle field (unless a dominatrix is present - then its mount takes over - being the femal of the hive tyrant genous -- that is not saying that they reproduce, buts its genetic past)
Really, that's not true at all. The hive tyrant is a relatively minor member of the Hive Mind - merely functioning as a high powered node on the field, and an effective and agile combat construct.

You might as well call robots males and females. The combat organisms of the Tyranid fleet are all designed as combat organisms, not fully functional, evolved organisms with reproduction even as a possibility. There are no "he" and "she" denominations.

The only thing in the entire fleet that reproduces is on the ships themselves ... they create things out of biomaterial, and do not really "birth" per se even. Plus, even they are produced by dividing into other ones if one of their kind is killed.

Again, it's an asexual superorganism and/or hermaphroditic one, that creates things for use in battle. There is no he / she.

The "queen" denomination is one done by the Imperium. This is similar to the denomination "bug." Tyranids hold NO meaningful biological similarities to insects, "bugs," yet they are slang termed that by Imperial Guardsmen / etc.



Final note: the Norn Queens don't actually ride into battle. IIRC that bit of fluff is more rumor than truth. They don't even leave the ship.
 

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with refrence to the deathspitter/devourer concept, I have done the same, though I just attached the devourer cone stright to the devourer -- however what you suggest of cutting of the tip of the deathspitter makes sense, as I have found that the cone tends to dip downwards a little to much



and yes we all know nids have no genders - but that still does not explain why the tyrant is a she
 

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and yes we all know nids have no genders - but that still does not explain why the tyrant is a she
Because it isn't a she. Some folks call them "she" because of the "queen" idea from the xenomorphs.

I tend to call mine "he" since tyrant generally makes one envision a male before a female.

The only tyranids with a real sex though would probably be the genestealers, who are almost universally male.
 

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Of course the Hive Tyrant is female... Tyranids are basically very insect-like, and insects are matriarchal, aren't they? Ant Queens, bee queent, etc. Even the praying mantis female eats the male I believe, as do many species of spiders.

And the name... HIVE tyrant... Like a bee hive or other insect hive.

The Hive Tyrant is female gosh [email protected]#@[email protected]$##Q$

.
My opponents don't have time to decide whether the giant flying monstrosity that just jumped on them and is in the process of ripping them to shreds is male or female. At most they have time to say, *gurgle* 8X

With that said, make yours male or female, it doesn't matter much.
 

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huh?
how so? external carapace, 6 limbs, a roughly segmented body (mostly warrios and fexes), antena on enhanced senses head, the fact that nids are a cross between insects and dinosaurs?
Granted they are not pure insects, but they are based on them to a degree
 

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The fact that they are vertebrates with closed circulatory systems makes them as far as you can get right from the get-go. They stand upright, supported by clearly visible (in some models) vertebrate structures. They have veins - a clear indicator of a CLOSED circulatory system. Lrn2biology.

Additionally, having a carapace is not the same as having an exoskeleton. Armadillos, for instance. Will you call them insect-like? They walk far less upright than a Tyranid, indicating less clearly a skeletal structure/vertebrae. They've got an "exoskeleton" as you refer to it.

Their bodies are not at all segmented in the insect sense, I'm assuming you simply are unaware of what a segmented insect body is about.

Their SKELETONS are clearly bony, with vertebrae. This renders what you refer to as their "exoskeleton" in fact a protective carapace, and not an exoskeleton at all.

Antenna? Many creatures have extrasensory organs and appendages, and guess what - they're not all insects!

I could go on and on, and even rip out the 8 years I worked with animal life as a career, but I'll stop with the simple clarifications referred to above.


edit: They are also distinguished from Arthrodpods in general (the larger collection of animals including crustaceans, spiders, etc.) for the above reasons, and of course the fact that Tyranids are clearly Chordates (dorsal nerve cord).
 
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