[grimmtu]

I've been thinking - a lot of things in the new chaos codex seem to go with rumors about 5th edition.

Firstly, as Koss pointed out in the Daemonic Mounts thread - the 2 mounts w/o movement upgrades will benefit greatly from the rumored "Forced March" rule.

This rule makes a bit of sense in light of the cheap chaos rhinos - after all, Rhinos will be even less useful than before (although not completely useless).

It also seems like footslogging possessed and greater daemons will be a bit more useful because of this. Though everything is still rumors, I generally don't pay much attention to rumors...

Overall, I am liking the way the rumors sound. Would be nice if GW would actually finish something before they start something new.

 

[Karmoon]

I'm extremely worried about Chaos in 5th Ed.

The biggest factor being the second and final nerf for powerfists.

Basically, we are not to get attacks for having two CC weapons in close combat.

So each asp champion now pays an extortionate price for a fist for just his basic number of attacks.

Even with the IoK, this really isn't worth it. Especially considering we used to get double the amount of attacks for less than half of the price.

Secondly, as far as I can ascertain, all blast template weapons (plasma cannons/Missile launchers) are resolved at BS2 (more or less) as you use the scatter dice instead of your BS.

This puts obliterators at a terrible disadvantage against crowds from a distance, and even with only 1D6 scatter, missile havocs aren't going to be good against things because they'll suddenly shoot like orks when using their frag missiles.

This is a huge waste of our elite BS. Especially as oblits (who will be shuffling and shooting) will have to roll 2D6 and choose the highest for scatter.

The march rule seems nice.. however, all we'll do is march into the jaws of forces superior in CC - orks and nids in particular.

Possessed and chosen are capable of some interesting tricks if mounted in rhinos using the special 'flank' attack rule. Could be nasty when combined with deepstriking (the new deepstrike rules barely affect us considering our icons).

Plasma is that much safer to use now.. which is good, although the flip side is that we can expect more enemies to take it too.

Perhaps the biggest plus for us is the change to poisoned weapons.

Basically, instead of having a Lord who injures IG on 4+ and then doesn't count it as a power weapon.. he now will strike marines and IG with his proper strength AND get to re roll wounds, and from what I can gather, still retain the power weapon effects.

So, nurgle lords on bikes with a daemon weapon looks like the way forward.

So.. in conclusion, the price hike to fists comboed with 5th Ed.. really puts fists off the menu. If we could get dual fists, I'd still be happy, but that's not even on our menu.

..

That's just my initial reaction anyway. Remember people.. this is still based on material which isn't necessarily final.. so it may change.

Not good overall. A dark day for chaos perhaps?

heh.. not likely. Daemon legions should be absolutely amazing ^_^

 

[Sythus]

Some of the rules sound good some bad we may get hurt a bit but hey whats chaos without alil pain well just laugh and adapt.....i hope.

 

[Dreachon]

I have to agree, it's a stupid idea, hopefully it's an early draft and GW didn't go with it, sofar there's retarded ideas in it you won't believe.
I mena who the hell has the option in their codex for dual PF or such, only that freaking marneus calgar no other normal model can do it's it's a stupid idea from GW.
Luckily our obliterators have SaP so they only roll 1D6 but I agree that it makes no sense of whatever that we now have to use BS, at leats my krak missile will still hit on 3's.
Biggest beef I have is with this whole bonanza on defensieve weapons beeing Str4, what the hell are GW smoking if they go with this stupid rule.

 

[justanotherchaoslord]

from where do you get those rumors? argh, panic!

 

[Caluin]

Hadn't heard about the Powerfist one yet. If that's true, it makes me even happier that I pulled my Champions out of my Troops choices. Still sucks for my Chosen, however.

I disagree on the Rhinos. I think they're going to be even more useful than before with the change to the damage chart. Essentially, you can no longer score a Vehicle Destroyed result on a glancing hit. You'd have to go through however many Immobilized and Weapon Destroyed results as it takes to simulate the destroyed result. That means smoke launchers (which all Rhinos come with standard) gives you a near unkillable tank for one round.

I have heard rumour that Independent Characters can no longer hide outside of groups. Scuttlebutt says that GW is removing the rule that prevents you from firing upon them if there is a unit screening them. The way I see it, this means Lords and Sorcerers are going to be spending far more time inside of units than before, to help keep them safe.

I also believe this means less people will be taking Winged Sorcerers with the Lash of Submission. With the loss of IC protection, they'll be inside of a unit. Since it counts as a shooting attack, whichever unit the Sorcerer Lashes will also be the target of the unit he's in. This isn't necessarily a horrible thing (there's still some extreme synergy with Noise Marines), but is probably enough to turn a number of players off to the idea of hidden Lashes.

Of course, there's still nothing preventing them from taking Daemon Princes w/ the Lash. After all, that's the route I'm headed already.

 

[Triumph Of Man]

I disagree on the Rhinos. I think they're going to be even more useful than before with the change to the damage chart. Essentially, you can no longer score a Vehicle Destroyed result on a glancing hit. You'd have to go through however many Immobilized and Weapon Destroyed results as it takes to simulate the destroyed result. That means smoke launchers (which all Rhinos come with standard) gives you a near unkillable tank for one round.

it's not the damage chart that's going to do the damage so to speak, it's the fact that entanglement is gone. Alas, the rather lame days of rhino rushing are back.

Also, hull down is now a proper cover save, just like infantry. It doesn't change penetration types. Smoke is the equivilant protection to the vehicle as trees are to infantry.

As for ICs, as far as I can see it appears they need to hide within units to stay safe. Of course friendly and enemy troops block LOS, so it's not all bad there.

 

[ze_poodle]

I've figured it out. You know how everyone was annoyed that 4th ed was really more version 3.5?

Warhammer 40,000 5th Edition: Actually Just 2.5.

 

[Triumph Of Man]

I didn't think it was possible to sum up the problem in one catchy soundbite, but I think you've whacked it good.

 

[Caluin]

I gotta say... over all, I'm sorely disappointed.

Predators will be nigh unusable now. Unless you're willing to just never move the things.

Rhinos are more subject to being blown up, but at least you don't take entanglement tests anymore. I'm mixed about that.

Powerfists bug me. I understand they're trying to make players think of using alternate weapons, but nerfing them was a bad idea. Black Templars and Space Wolves are pretty much screwed now.

The modifiers to combats bug me, as well. It's now all about smashing your opponent's units as quickly as possible, breaking them as fast as possible. Inflict just a few extra wounds over your opponent, and suddenly they're taking a morale test on Leadership 6. Or worse.

But... over all, what irritates me the most? That only Troops count as scoring units. How can you honestly tell me that my Chaos Marines can secure a location, but because this particular unit over here Infiltrates, they're incapable of it? Or because they wear Terminator Armour? Ludicrous.

It'd have made so much more sense if they just said Infantry only.

Some changes are good, though. Poisoned Weapons? Nurgle Daemon Weapon might just become the best of them. From bottom of the pit to the top of the pile, with just a quick little amendment.

I'm going to have to rethink my Obliterators now too. That bugs me. A lot. I will still be using them, probably, but I'm saddened that Plasma Cannons scatter. Not sure if that's a good or a bad thing.

 

[Karmoon]

Honestly, there's very little sense in the Chaos codex now, and I think it'll have to have a rewrite - along with the Dark Angel one.

Power fists were admittedly too abusable in our old codex, but punishing the chaos player on both fronts (cost and effectiveness) does nothing for the game but simply remove it from the game.

Power fists are outdated and outpriced by simply spamming melta guns which we can do quite well.

I was under the impression GW were attempting to make everything in the codex a potential option.. but as the new rule stand currently - as Cal said, they remove many build of predator (although amusingly, the chaos classic Destructor pattern with lascannon sponsons remains the best), Obliterators have suffered twice in a row having lost Autocannons/H bolters and now effectively losing plasma cannons.

I'd like to believe that they're not so naive to plan such changes without considering the impact on all the forces..

But i also think it's a horrendous waste of resources in the new Chaos codex if they outdate it within half a year with a new ruleset.

The Nurgle daemon weapon is almost broken now I reckon. It's gone from being useless to something which is pretty much lethal against anything in the game. Doesn't seem to be any drawbacks apart from rolling the occasional 1.

That said,IC's are in massive danger in CC now - there's no 2" zone any more (as far as I can ascertain). So, that hidden fist (albeit it with only 2) just keeps on swinging.

What bugs me is that.. nerfs which hit us so badly really don't affect orks at all. They're already pretty might which is fine.. but this new codex just makes them seem untouchable.

 

[Caluin]

What bugs me is that.. nerfs which hit us so badly really don't affect orks at all. They're already pretty might which is fine.. but this new codex just makes them seem untouchable.

You noticed that too? I jokingly remarked to one of my friends that I'm switching to Orks once 5th hits, but I think there was a hint of truth behind my statement.

On the bright side, at least our Chaos Bikers can once again shoot their Plasmaguns out to full range after moving. That's got to be worth something... right?

 

[Karmoon]

On the bright side, at least our Chaos Bikers can once again shoot their Plasmaguns out to full range after moving. That's got to be worth something... right?

Considering that in terms of CC we don't really have any options anymore, and that CC armies will be rapidly moving towards us.. that leaves mid/close range shooting as all we have left.

So, I'll take any advantage I can get

That, or switch to daemons. At least it's still Chaos and I can sleep soundly at night knowing that I've been a good boy in remaining loyal to the dark and evil.

 

[ze_poodle]

What bugs me is that.. nerfs which hit us so badly really don't affect orks at all. They're already pretty might which is fine.. but this new codex just makes them seem untouchable.

Don't you see? That's Jervis' plan. It's been his plan all along.

The changes have been subtle and hard to notice - and rightly so. By making outwardly beneficial edits and calling them "updates", and then changing the very definition of the language within which he is working, he is changing the game. After a brief period of elation, it dawns upon the players that Jervis literally doesn't care about the rules, because he can change how they work at a grammatical level. It is Calvinball of the highest degree. And we're down 3-0.

Jervis Johnson is an Ork player. And always has been, even before that humiliating battle report in 2nd edition where Captain Tycho lost half his face. When 5th edition dawns, the megalomaniac will have achieved his sinful objective and executed the most hideous betrayal Warhammer has ever seen. The Blood Angels will fall, and the Orks will rise. And only one man can stop him. Only he can restore balance to the Force! I mean Warhammer!

We must summon Andy Chambers. Quickly! To the Andysignal! Before it is too late!

 

[Karmoon]

Give me Peter Haines any day.

Heh... we should all petition for Peter Haines to write the next Chaos codex, and make it snappy.

It makes sense though Poodle...
I mean.. any army with blast template weapons is automatically reduced to Ork ballistic skill.. and they're the weapons which may hurt orks a lot..

It's a conspiracy!

 

[Imperialis_Dominatus]

So it's come to this...

Fine, I don't need rules to back me up, I'll crush the Orks with tactics.

 

[targetfixed]

Can someone tell me where these rumours are coming from?

 

[Caluin]

Can someone tell me where these rumours are coming from?

Various places. Other forums, GamesWorkshop Employees, etc. All information you hear is to be taken with a grain of salt, and is subject to change until the book is officially released.

 

[Sabe]

Really I don't think a lot of these rumors are as bad as some people make them out to be. For one, the scattering blasts act as a barrage if you use them together. So while a single blast weapon user might have been nerfed a bit a squad of oblits or havocs with missile launchers is actually quite capable of hitting their target and everything else nearby.

The hit to powerfists seems a bit overblown. By comparison to most other weapons available to champions their still quite good. And really it was an overused strategy anyway. Which inevitably end up getting nerfed.

Caluin: On the note of troops being the only scoring units it has been said in several rumors that the mission variety was changing dramatically and that that particular rule was not nearly as bad as it seemed when the missions themselves were considered.

Overall the only thing i'm iffy about is the S$ defensive weapons, which is one of the less well supported rumors anyway, so we'll see.

 

[Triumph Of Man]

Overall the only thing i'm iffy about is the S$ defensive weapons, which is one of the less well supported rumors anyway, so we'll see.

Unless it gets changed from between now till the release, that rumour is confirmed.

Caluin: On the note of troops being the only scoring units it has been said in several rumors that the mission variety was changing dramatically and that that particular rule was not nearly as bad as it seemed when the missions themselves were considered.

Although it's been reworked a lot, it still doesn't alleviate the stupidity of only troops being scoring units. Think about, why the hell can't chosen secure an objective, but normal CSM can? The same runs true in every army. And then you get units like Kommandos that'd fluffwise be more willing to sit around securing an objective compared to rowdy Slugga Boyz.

Trust me, it's just as bad as it sounds. Nothing in the changes to the mission types help at all.

And Jervis is still an idiot.

EDIT: I'm surprised to see all you chaos players whinging. The IG are in direr straits. Not just because of the run rule, friendly models blocking LOS. But because there's a mission that we just can't win. Total Annihilation, the mission where 10 guardsmen is worth the same as 10 Chaos marines, but are still bloody easy to kill. Go figure GW, you just ruined the whole point of the bloody points cost system.