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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Asides from almost never being in stock in GW stores, i honestly think that the CSM heros can be rivaled by upgraded Lords/Sorcerers/Daemon princes around the same points cost. The only heros that can outdo most custom HQs are usually very expensive such as Typhus and Abaddon. Just throwing it out there but I honestly think that if you want an HQ that you can customize to your style of playing, you should just get a non hero HQ rather than looking through the heros and asking yourself which one fits you better. The only reason i would use a hero these days is if i was playing apocolypse in which case i wouldnt mind buying a more expensive hero (I already have Typhus for apocolypse).
 

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The Allmighty Chaos Boots
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Compared to a flying lash prince none of the named HQs or any other form of HQ makes any sense in having other than for fluff reasons. I would consider typhus though if he was eternal warrior and 25 points cheaper.

Compared to some other unnemtionable codices we really only have one HQ choice.
 

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I believe that the only "Hero" HQs (let's face it, nothing would give these guys the title of "Hero") that are viable outside of 2000+ pt armies is Kharne and Lucious. I believe that you can sometimes customize a HQ better tooled to what you're trying to do with your army, such as a lash prince.

Also, the reason you can't find most of the "Hero" HQs is because the only ones that stores carry on a regular basis is Abaddon and Huron, the others you will more than likely have to order online or ask the store owner to make a special order for you.
 

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Well, Bile is in his own class thanks to Enhanced Warrior, and Kharn is certainly unique enough--I love how he never 'misses' in close combat. But, yes, there are only so many ways one can create a one-man CC powerhouse. Add to that the fact that our characters don't alter how the army plays (aside from Bile, whose ability is expensive, specific and fratricidal) and how much more fun it is to kit out a generic HQ, and it's no surprise that our characters aren't very popular.

Three replies in 12 minutes...you can't beat the service at LO!
 

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The Allmighty Chaos Boots
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True Lucius and Kharne are decent and fun.. But they aren't godly. They aren't 3+ invo 5 pfist attacks and eternal warrior with army enhancing attributes and they can't give your cheap missile toting scouts a 2+ cover save either.

rant rant :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
kharn only hits on 2+'s so he can miss. Theres also the fact that 1 of Kharns attacks has to be directed towards one of your own units. I say why get Kharn when you can get a daemon prince? they both have weapon skill 7, the daemon prince has better strength, better toughness, more wounds, as in an eternal warrior and monsterous creature. not to mention that daemon princes can have wings, a mark, and a cheap spell like doombolt or nurgles rot and still be the same or less for points cost. The daemon prince only has two disadvantages which that he has 1 less attack, but that can be made up for with any one of the marks or can be fixed with mark of khorne, and that the daemon princes weapon doesnt count as a power weapon against vehicles, but it doesnt matter because, being a monsterous creature, he gets an extra d6 against vehicles anyways. the daemon prince would be even better than kharn at killing vehicles if you gave the daemon prince a mark of chaos glory.

to put it short, i think that daemon princes are better than kharn in every way and can be cheaper. Just an example of why some HQs are better than chaos heros
 

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kharn only hits on 2+'s so he can miss. Theres also the fact that 1 of Kharns attacks has to be directed towards one of your own units. I say why get Kharn when you can get a daemon prince? they both have weapon skill 7, the daemon prince has better strength, better toughness, more wounds, as in an eternal warrior and monsterous creature. not to mention that daemon princes can have wings, a mark, and a cheap spell like doombolt or nurgles rot and still be the same or less for points cost. The daemon prince only has two disadvantages which that he has 1 less attack, but that can be made up for with any one of the marks or can be fixed with mark of khorne, and that the daemon princes weapon doesnt count as a power weapon against vehicles, but it doesnt matter because, being a monsterous creature, he gets an extra d6 against vehicles anyways. the daemon prince would be even better than kharn at killing vehicles if you gave the daemon prince a mark of chaos glory.

to put it short, i think that daemon princes are better than kharn in every way and can be cheaper. Just an example of why some HQs are better than chaos heros
well here's the thing. he said Kharn technically doesn't miss because he doesn't. on a 1, he's still gonna hit, just not what you wanted him to hit >.>

as for the DP's, you're all over the place with your explanation. If you're trying to tool up a DP to rival Kharn in CC and give him the MoK (like you stated), you can't take the cheap spell like you mentioned as one of its advantages.

I'm not trying to argue with you. the DP's are by far the best HQ's we can take with their base abilities and the ways we can customize them, but Kharn is probably the best valued named HQ.

but to the OP, Typhus and Kharn are special order, thats why you don't see them in stores. I picked up Typhus on ebay and ordered Kharn from GW direct. I'm not sure about Ahriman, Lucius, or Bile. Abaddon and Huron are still available in most all stores though.

and game-wise, in the bigger games, Abaddon is a monster that you should at least experiment with. especially if you play Apoc at some point.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
I know you cant give mark of khorne and a spell at the same time, im just giving several different combinations of how he could rival kharn
 

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You're completely right Charnel, a DP will almost always be a better choice of HQ than Kharn (unless in a fluffy World Eaters army :) ). Just saying that of all the named HQs, imo, Kharn and Lucious are the best ones.

On a side note, if you pinned Kharn off against a khornate DP, I believe Kharn would win. He will hit the DP on 2+ whereas the DP is hitting him on 4+, and although the DP is wounding more often (3+ compared to Kharn's 4+ against him), he probably won't have as many dice to bring to that phase as Kharn. This is all without getting into whom charged whom or if Kharn got any plasma pistol shots off or wounded himself from Gets Hot! (this is the only way he can wound himself).
 

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Kharn is a better charactor killer, assuming the charactor is some big badass. The DP is more of a multipurpose badass, while Kharn only shines against hugely scary monster's like a Wraithlord, Avatar, Carni, or... well, a DP.
 

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resident iconoclast
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Of named characters, only Kharne is really good. Typhus and Abbadon are close, but Terminator armour means they require a Land Raider to be good, and they're awfully expensive on their own--meaning that once you've properly mounted them they're seriously cutting into your points.

Kharne actually does more than enough damage to justify his cost. His upsides are ridiculous high output in combat. His downsides are a lack of speed (no wings, jump pack, or bike) and a lack of durability (less T, W than a DP and no Eternal Warrior).
 

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Woof! Woof! Bark! Bark!!!
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My question to you is what do you mean by 'worth it'? I am assuming you mean the best return on the points spent. If that is so the only one that is worth looking at is Kharn. He is basically a one-man squad, and is fairly priced. Attach him to a squad of marines and he will last even longer in combat. It is advantageous that he has power armor, meaning he can ride in a Rhino. If you want to spend the points, Kharn and 11 Berzerkers in a Land Raider will vaporize anything it comes in contact with.

But, if you are willing to put your HQ in a Land Raider, Abbadon becomes very attractive, as he is probably the most powerful unit in the game...

However, some of the Special Characters' models are so awesome that they are 'worth it' just to have an awesome miniature in your collection. I personally think that Cypher and Typhus are some of the best marine models GW has ever made. Totally worth it! :)




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The other Kind of Fluff
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On a side note, if you pinned Kharn off against a khornate DP, I believe Kharn would win. He will hit the DP on 2+ whereas the DP is hitting him on 4+, and although the DP is wounding more often (3+ compared to Kharn's 4+ against him), he probably won't have as many dice to bring to that phase as Kharn. This is all without getting into whom charged whom or if Kharn got any plasma pistol shots off or wounded himself from Gets Hot! (this is the only way he can wound himself).
The prince would actually be hitting on a 2+ against Kharn. Also, when examining the two together, that is, in a brawl, we should probably work out a prince of comparable point cost to Kharn, which might look something like this:

Prince- 160
*IoS
*Wings
*Warp Time

Against the above prince, I'm fairly certain that Kharn would fall, even without the IoS. As well, when it comes to the charge, the prince should have the upper hand, as he has superior movement. Here's looking at the numbers (assuming no charge):

Kharn would inflict 1.4 wounds on the prince each turn
The prince would inflict 2.9 wounds on Kharn each turn

However, as others have pointed out, Kharn has a different purpose than a prince, and it's rather an unfair comparison when looking for an HQ. On a side, Kharn has the hidden advantage of fitting inside a rhino, so he'll likely charge into close combat as a fresh, unwounded model.

As far as the other special characters are concerned, I still maintain that both Lucius and Huron are competitive with Kharn. It just depends on what enemy you're fighting. All three have very respectable assault weapons. Both Kharn and Lucius deal out an average of 4+ wounds to MEQs on the charge, yet Lucius has the built in defense of his lash. Therefore, he's less of a glass hammer than Kharn, and should last at least one round longer. That additional around means additional wounds Lucius will undoubtedly inflict on our enemies. Also, I should say that the above stats are based on Lucius dealing out .5 wounds from his Armor, which I think is a fair assumption.

Huron is a slightly different animal, and we can't expect him to manage c.c. at the same level of finesse as either Kharn or Lucius, which are both highly specialized towards grinding through body after body (albeit, Kharn might differ with me, since he's not too shabby against light to medium vehicles). Back to Huron: On the charge, he should inflict 3.6 MEQ kills, assuming he's striking at a 4S. That's really not bad for a model that will never get caught with his pants down against enemy walkers and monstrous creatures, and who is brutal against swarms. Again, you're paying for an all-purpose model when you take old Huron off the shelf.

So what does all this mean? Not much. In the end, I still field a prince 90% of the time, unless I'm playing a friendly game.
 

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Abbadon and Typhus have terminator armour. Deep Strike them with some terminator buddies and you can deal an immense amount of damage to whatever target you've customized the termies for. Abbadon and Typhus can then operate on their own.
 

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I find that a transport is more reliable then teleporting. Granted, you could throw them in an LR, but that's expensive... the nice thing about the Rhino is how cheap and cheerful it is. And with a Rhino, there is exactly 0% of a deviation. Of course, the Rhino simply migt not make it there at all... but that's better then having a squad materialize in front of the enemies firing line due to a mishap.
 

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The good thing about teleporting is the surprice. You will throw the opponent off guard and ****-up his battle plans when those guys show up and destroys his only ways of dealing with transports or something like that.

If you have transports as a reliable way of getting your troops or heroes towards your opponents lines, then your opponent will counter those threats in a reliable way. To have an element in your army that is impossible to reliably counter is a bigger asset than many think.
 

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One Awesome Dude
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Wayne speaks truth. Even if your opponent knows exactly what's coming, placing Deep Striking forces in a location he cannot predict can really mess things around. My regular opponent really drives me insane when he brings Fast Attack Grey Knights, despite my awareness of their imminent arrival, he still often surprises me by putting them where I wouldn't expect.

But with Abaddon, he's so large a point cost, if you're going to Deep Strike, I'd drop him right into the middle of the storm where he can start earning points back as soon as possible.
 

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I would go with Typhus. He's big in points, but if you place him smack in the middle he will use his Nurgles Rot ability to it's maximum effect. He will probably survive as he's T5, 2+/5+ save and FnP. He's a tough guy. His impact as an immovable object in the middle of the game will be more important than his points cost.
Even if the opponent is aware of the best tactical deployment of deepstrikers and prepares for that, you gain more to placeyour deepstrikes where they are the least expected. The more decisions your opponent have to make when re-deploying, the more mistakes he will make.
 

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I can appreciate the surprise of a well placed Deep Strike... but I also hold a healthy respect for deviating off the table, or not coming until turn 5, or deviating into the enemies fields of fire, ect. Maybe I'm paranoid... but my Rhinos and Land Raiders don't have to worry about that... They just have to deal with the full fury of my friends Tyranid Anti-tank fire... *Snicker*
 
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