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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Dear all,

I have been musing about starting an urban warfare foot slogging Eldar army (i do not have any Eldar models yet). Does anybody have any suggestions regarding stratagems and armory selections?

The units i have in mind are:

Small Storm guardian squads with three flame templates
Large Storm Guardians units with sewer rats and enhance
Striking Scorpions
Swooping Hawks
War-walkers with Scatter lasers (does the rumored 5th edition codex disallow the firing of two main weapons after moving 6 inches?)
Guardian Jet-bikes with shuriken cannon upgrades
Dire Avengers
Pathfinders
Autarch with Jetbike and Shining Spear retinues
 

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There will be a lot of cover so pathfinders will do well, be sure to sit them in a building with a good field of fire.

Be sure to include plenty of dire avengers, they are extremely useful at close quarters, and their extended range allows them to dominate weak short ranged creatures (genestealers, gaunts, IG) before they get an opportunity to strike with full force.

I read in tactica somewhere that dividing your force into two armies allows for greater tactical flexibility, secures more strategic points, and enables you to take control of more of the battlefield effectively with support nearby. I havn't tried it but you might like it.
 

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I'd also say take harlequins. Since they ignore terrain, they are the kings of cities of death. They're hard hitting on the charge and so they can loop around faster than your opponent thinks is possible and you can take out any heavy weapon squads. I'd also go for a melee wraithlord with duel flamers. He'll be able to burn away those cover saves and tie up a unit from claim buildings, flanking, etc.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Thank you for the suggestions. It seems to me that Cities of Death is maximizing the amount of "localized" dakka for the Eldar. One idea i was toying about was a battery of indirect fire weapons such as the D-cannon or the mortar equivalent of the Deathspinner. This was influenced by some Space Marine Army lists that have taken Whirlwinds for their heavy support.

xhivetyrantx, speaking of a Wraithlord, would the "Wrecker Ball" Stratagem work combined with Shuriken Cannons and Scatter Lasers?
 

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avoid bikes

Avoid bikes as they can't technically hold objectives.

Skimmers do well, so going armor is an option, but I wouldn't take more then a tank or two.

Scorpions excel in the urban environment. So do wraithlords (cover save makes them nasty!) Warp Spiders also do good work.

I'd avoid wraithguard, since cover saves could limit their nasty guns hitting power and they are luke warm in Hand to hand.

Expect a lot of hand to hand, and exploit that eldar can ignore terrain in many ways.

Good luck!
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Dear Frankman eldar,

Since Close Combat is almost an inevitability in Cities of Death, would it make sense to equip Dire Avenger Exarchs with twin Catapults and both exarch powers of Defend and Bladestorm? I am aware this discussion has been posted several times before, but few of them directly addressed fighting swarm armies in urban terrain.

There is one more question regarding the Split Deployment Tactic Shiz_Vaerth was referring to: has anybody tried dividing their armies into three large battlegroup concentrations instead of the two battlegroups proposed by the Split Deployment Tactic? I thought that this would divide enemy attention further, but requires prodigious amounts of troops.
 

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Hey Lord P-P

Personally, the exarch's wargear is more important then the exarch powers.

Defend and bladestorm are both great...but I find when I have my Dire Avengers tooled for CC they end up in it more often then they should :?

I'd say its more important to take the power-weapon and shimmer-field then the exarch powers, but if your points allow then I'd go for bladestorm and finally defend.

If you can, I'd practice with a pure "shooter" squad and then a "combo" one and see what you like.

When I play in urban settings I tend to separate into several arms. Never try to do something with a single squad, but I will often have a 2 squad detachment go for an objective (because I know I can always get some fast-moving armor of jump infantry to support).

good luck!
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Dear Frankmaneldar,

That was very helpful advice. Based on what you said, how do you normally practice with two short range firepower squads closely supporting each other? Any drills that you have in mind would be appreciated. I have to admit, i have only seen people play 40k, but the only game i have played so far was an introduction game with Warhammer Fantasy Battle as Orks against the Dwarves.
 

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complementary units

Hey Lord penny-pincher,

I wish I could confess to having a consistent tactical game-plan that always results in success, but I play infrequently (perils of gainful employment and getting old:D) so I end up doing what folks call "list-hammer" and then I go balls-out for objectives.

By "list-hammer" I mean I take squads that can take advantage of the urban environment...we've discussed that a bit.

For me, I see what objectives I can grab easily and I ignore them (cause I can swoop in on the last turn and get them). Then I try to use good ol' eldar speed to beat my opponent to the others. If I can get him to commit to digging out a detachment on the main objective then my other forces can exploit other opportunities.

If I send a 2 squad detachment that's far away from the center of gravity of my force, I make sure that it is mobile and that the squads compliment each other. Often that means one squad that can do CC well, and a shooty squad.

At the central objective I try to park a wraithlord, preferably some scorpions, and have my Farseer nearby. I also will take guardians for numbers (and the cover saves mean they last longer).

For my mobile dets I take warp spiders and I'll put another unit in a wave serpent (in one), and the other I use bikes of some flavor and a cheap unit with Fleet of foot.

Most people aren't good at reading the objectives, they just play "kill 'em all". Make sure you are doing things that will satisfy the objectives and don't waste time on gambles. If you are doing something thinking "I hope this works", it likely won't. Where 1 squad is good, three is better.

Typically when I have lost its been because I didn't get enough force into an objective at the end. Most of the time I do win, by getting there first and whittling my opponent away.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Dear Frankmaneldar,

I hear you. Working and doing research at the same time leaves little opportunity for either of us to enjoy this hobby more often. But now that you mention about the ganging up of several Eldar units against one enemy unit or objective, I realized that most of the games being played on open terrain with kill everything standing rules never fit the fluff of an outnumbered and dying race. If i had any say in the fluff i as the Eldar would have fought a fighting retreat in the same vein as the Tau as opposed to fighting the entire swarm of bugs and fungi.

Would you still recommend indirect fire weapons batteries (shadow weavers and D-cannons) for Urban Warfighting?
 

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Yes!

LPP,

The Fluff-crimes are plentiful these days, but if the stats matched the fluff the model count of an eldar army would be ridiculously low...and with farseer's precognition they'd always win ;Y


I like D-guns, especially if you deploy first and can range an objective. I like wraithlords more in urban settings so I run two and then either a falcon or d-guns. Falcons are good at rescuing units and with their multiple shots overcoming cover saves.

Also, a dying race would not want a fair fight so they'd muster all the firepower they could to squash a threat...so the fluff crime can be explained away (if you care to).

Good luck!
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Dear Frankmaneldar,

Great to hear from somebody who speaks in favor of the D-guns and Shadow Weavers. Would you consider Warwalkers over any of the other heavy support choices (apart from Dark Reapers which i do not intend to take). It is true that the Falcon can provide a rapid reaction response with two high strength shots, but it does not provide as much dakka as a Warwalker (or opportunities to miss with our shots).

Actually when i was browsing through Games Workshop's Site on Cities of Death, Andy Hoare mentioned in the Vehicles and Stratagem Page about an Imperial Guard Mechanized Company (complete with Chimeras and Russ') run an Eldar opponent off the board. However, given the fact that many of our antipersonnel weapons more than adequate in punching through the rear and side armors of Chimeras (as well as the rear armor of Russ') i wonder how the IG player manged to pull it off.
 

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I do prety well against IG

I have a war-walker,

But I rarely use it. Sure the rate of fire is good, but I prefer Wraithlords. Walkers are too fragile and don't benefit from cover as much.

As far as IG go, if they have a lot of tanks they can be tough, but since their movement is more restricted it isn't that bad.

What hurts is all the indirect fire and big templates. Cover saves and fortune can help, but if you don't knock out the big guns then they can really take it to you.

A fast detachment can pop rear armor fairly well, unless they get protection from cover. I lost a game to a pretty bad SMurf player because he parked a rhino in a building objective and I couldn't pop it...however, that was last version of the rules so I don't think that would happen anymore.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Dear Frankmaneldar,

I spent some time during the weekend browsing through the second edition rules regarding negative to hit modifiers due to terrain and movement as well as fighting through buildings. What i got out of reading the old rules book was how much more suited second edition rules were for urban warfare (we Eldar would not have to be hit so often!).

Anyway, enough ramblings aside i have been toying with the idea of 6 jetbikes with shuriken cannon upgrades and a Warlock (with Destructor) as a retinue for a Farseer HQ. In your experience, what have you typically chosen as your HQ choices for urban campaigns?
 

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2ed...memories

Ah, the helcion days of 2ed when I played 2 games a weekend and regularly ranked in the top 3 in local tourneys...and music was still good (where did the 90's go?)

Sorry ;Y

To hit modifiers never helped me much, but it made more sense. To be honest, I played a lot of 3ED CITYFIGHT, and not much of the new rules.

I always field a Farseer on a jetbike. I've played around with the idea of a warlock retinue (on bikes) but it restricts the flexibility of the Farseer. I have attached shining spears to my farseer, but the apples/oranges combo wasn't really helpful.

The 6 in" move in the assault phase combined with the independent character rules make the jetbike a great upgrade (even if it means he can't claim an objective).

I also like Avatars because of the "Inspiring" ability. He's slow, but run with an avatar and a wraithlord or two and suddenly those CC SMurfs aren't so cocky. In that case I'd say my tactics are of the "hammer/anvil" variety.

I don't care for the Autauch. I understand some people wanted a straight eldar general, but to me its a little out of character for the army and there isn't much he brings to the table an exarch doesn't.

I want my unattached exarchs back! I also want my pop-up attacks and some guns that aren't so silly short ranged. I'm glad, Dire avengers got 18", but honestly they should have a "rapid fire" type ability to reach to 24" and all catapults should have got the buff.

Not that my rant is germain to your question. :rofl

I like the farseer on the jetbike, he's a staple. After that an Avatar, or if its a small board its a for-sure thing. I converted my Farseer, so even though its not the best in the world I'm proud of him and I like to field him. Plus I was amazed at how much more effective (and survivable) he was once he got his 'hog'.

Cheers, man I'll rep you for letting me wax philosophical so much. I appreciate that you are interested in my point of view.

Frank
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Dear Frankmaneldar,

Referring back to the 2nd edition codex, there was a thread titled "unnecessary upgrades" in the humor section. One of the posts was for select Imperial Guardsmen to either crap in their trousers or perform insane feats of bravery. Now i remember reading about the "insane bravery or craven cowardice" rules about falling back units and realized how much character we gamers have lost in the name of simplicity.

I realize we are probably going off topic for the purpose of this thread, but how well did these old rules perform for you? I would be interested to see some of the old school Ork players' feedback as well.
 

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I liked 2ED

I played Rogue Trader a few times, but I didn't start my army until just after 2ED was released.

There are a few things that I'm glad that are gone, but for the most part we have sacrificed a lot of character for simplicity.

The fact that armor is now all-or-nothing changed the game dynamics (detrimentally) the most. In 2 ED, eldar were less armored, but because they had good weapons it evened out!

Grenades were actually an offensive item, and you could use overwatch to set up ambushes.

I'm glad they changed the CC rules, and I'm glad we don't have to mess with all the Dark Millenium paraphernalia, and I'm glad that our gimpy "dreadnaughts" are now cool Wraithlords and we have models for most everything.

I think shortening the ranges on most everything was/is stupid. Nerfing the open exarch powers sucks, one could tailor their armies better before. The fact most armies can get around psychology also hurts. Since 2ED most of the alleged "improvements" have meant a nerf for eldar (access points etc.).

I think the eldar list has matured and overall has gained some character since then (the farseer should still be T4, but he was an odd guy to be a CC monster), but over all I liked the flavor and flexibility of 2ED.

4ED is ok, but it seems too geared for SMurf newbies...or maybe I am just a crotchety old man who doesn't like change :happy:

cheers,

Frank
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Actually, I do not think any of us who have been exposed to Pre-3rd Edition rules are crotchety; thos who did well with the old rules were able to deal with the complexities of warfare and psychology. I remembered reading that Power Weapons whether it be Banshee or Imperial Guard weapons had a strength of 5 and a negative save modifier of -3: in other words Power Armour becomes Ork armour. I would have thought this would make the wounding of Space Marines easier instead of relying of Str3.

On a more relevant note to this thread; you mentioned previously that using two Wraithlords in the Cities of Death works very well with flushing out encamped units. How do you typically field your Warlocks (in terms of positioning and transport) in order to get around the wraithsight special rules?

In addition, i realized potential of using Vibrocannons as area denial weapons along highways for Swarm Armies. Just stick them inside ruins and use a squad of storm guardians with two flamers and a warlock with destructor hiding nearby as counter charge. The fact that the Vibrocannons hit all enemy units that lie along a 36" line of sight makes up for our lack or long range swarm firepower. In addition, this weapon automatically glances armoured vehicles without the need to roll for armour penetration. This could be just enough to stop the monolith or the blasted Land Raider from firing at us.
 

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Vibro-cannons are good

V-cannons are good, but I don't have those models so I don't use them.

Wraithlords are slow, but I pair them with a guardian unit with a warlock (usually a defender squad for the platform). I then just have them push to the closest objective.

The big guardian squad is usually pretty good bait, but if that isn't enough then camping in the main objective usually works ;Y

They don't always make it, but they soak a lot of firepower that would otherwise be hurting my key units.

Cheers,

Frank
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Dear Frankmaneldar,

Following a discussion about Kommandos in urban warfare with an Ork Player, I learned that units with the infiltration special rules such as Scorpions MUST take the infiltration stratagem. With the goal of facing swarm armies in mind, would fielding another stratagem such as razor wires and forgoing the infiltration rout be more beneficial for us Eldar in order to funnel the swarms into more manageable terrain?
 
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