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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Okay, I did a forum search to see if this had been answered before and didn't find anything, so...

I've been trying to work this out in my head, but can't grasp how having a combat shield would help out a non-Independent Character (such as the Veteran Assault Sergeant from the boxed set that comes with a Combat Shield arm as an option).

I understand how an Independent Character (IC) would benefit, since they are counted as a completely separate unit during assaults, the enemy allocates attacks specifically against the IC, which then uses either his armour save against normal close combat attacks, or the combat shield's invulnerable save against power weapons, etc. that do not allow an armour save.

The Veteran Sergeant, however, does not count as separate from his unit in close combat. For a unit I make any available armour saves vs. the majority save (which would be 3+ for a power-armour based squad), then allocate hits for any failed saves and remove the models I pick as the casualties from those remaining at each initiative step. I don't see how he could/would get to take advantage of the 5+ invulnerable save from the combat shield unless he were the only model left alive in his squad.

If I am missing something please explain.

Appreciate your help,

Valerian
 

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Valerian said:
Okay, I did a forum search to see if this had been answered before and didn't find anything, so...

I've been trying to work this out in my head, but can't grasp how having a combat shield would help out a non-Independent Character (such as the Veteran Assault Sergeant from the boxed set that comes with a Combat Shield arm as an option).

I understand how an Independent Character (IC) would benefit, since they are counted as a completely separate unit during assaults, the enemy allocates attacks specifically against the IC, which then uses either his armour save against normal close combat attacks, or the combat shield's invulnerable save against power weapons, etc. that do not allow an armour save.

The Veteran Sergeant, however, does not count as separate from his unit in close combat. For a unit I make any available armour saves vs. the majority save (which would be 3+ for a power-armour based squad), then allocate hits for any failed saves and remove the models I pick as the casualties from those remaining at each initiative step. I don't see how he could/would get to take advantage of the 5+ invulnerable save from the combat shield unless he were the only model left alive in his squad.

If I am missing something please explain.

Appreciate your help,

Valerian
Because if he has another type of save, he may be assigned a wound-see mixed armour-p 76 I believe for more info.
 

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You misread the Mixed Armour Rules. Specifically, each and every model in a unit will always be able to use its own save. The majority simply determines which models are first to get wounds allocated to them.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Misread Rules?

Ostsol said:
You misread the Mixed Armour Rules. Specifically, each and every model in a unit will always be able to use its own save. The majority simply determines which models are first to get wounds allocated to them.

Who misread the mixed armour rules? Neither tarzen nor I said that a model doesn't get its own save.
 

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If you understand the Mixed Armour Rules and are applying them correctly, I don't see what you're having trouble with.
 

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First, forget about majority/mixed armour as your whole squad has 3+ armour saves from their power armour. Remember, the mixed armour rule only looks at armour saves when distributing wounding hits, not invulnerable saves.

Second, when a unit takes wounding hits you should parcel them out to all engaged models in order to work out what saves you will have to make, roll them, and then assign unsaved wounds to the engaged models, removing any casualties. Typically, every model in the unit has the same armour save so most people skip the second step and just roll the dice or start removing casualties but because you have an invulnerable save it is important that you follow the procedure correctly.


For example, if your unit is hit by an enemy unit with mostly close combat weapons and a single power weapon, then you could take a power weapon hit on the Sergeant and attempt to roll his invulnerable save while the regular hits are taken against the other models' power armour.

Alternately you could take the power weapon hit on a regular marine and remove him as a casualty while the Sergeant takes a regular hit on his power armour. This situation is far more likely as who wants to risk their Sergeant with a 5+ save? Not me.

Where the combat shield really benefits you is when you take lots of power weapon hits that threaten to wipe out your whole unit. In this case the combat shield gives you a shot at keeping your Sergeant in the fight and, if he is smart and has a power fist, it is really going to hurt your opponent.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Lleu said:
Second, when a unit takes wounding hits you should parcel them out to all engaged models in order to work out what saves you will have to make, roll them, and then assign unsaved wounds to the engaged models, removing any casualties. Typically, every model in the unit has the same armour save so most people skip the second step and just roll the dice or start removing casualties but because you have an invulnerable save it is important that you follow the procedure correctly.
Right, this is really the crux of it. I had been using the short-cut, and skipping the formal step of assigning/ parcelling out the hits prior to rolling saves.

Lleu said:
For example, if your unit is hit by an enemy unit with mostly close combat weapons and a single power weapon, then you could take a power weapon hit on the Sergeant and attempt to roll his invulnerable save while the regular hits are taken against the other models' power armour.

Alternately you could take the power weapon hit on a regular marine and remove him as a casualty while the Sergeant takes a regular hit on his power armour. This situation is far more likely as who wants to risk their Sergeant with a 5+ save? Not me.
This is another issue I was getting at in the original question. Why would you want to spend the points to put a combat shield on your sergeant, when you could just assign the power weapon hits to the other marines in the squad. It is not worth taking the risk (33% chance of preventing a casualty vs. losing your Vet with PF).

Lleu said:
Where the combat shield really benefits you is when you take lots of power weapon hits that threaten to wipe out your whole unit. In this case the combat shield gives you a shot at keeping your Sergeant in the fight and, if he is smart and has a power fist, it is really going to hurt your opponent.
This is pretty much the only reason I can see getting the combat shield. However, if I am likely to face an opponent with a lot of potential power weapon attacks, I'd probably want to avoid close combat, and invest the points into some more lethal firepower to keep the opposing power weapon wielding loonies at bay.

Thanks for your response,

Valerian
 

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Ah, so it was a question of the value of an item, rather than if it could work in general situations. My interpretation of the question was more like the issue of the Exarch Power Defend, which only works when the Exarch is the only targettable model. The Combat Shield can work any time that normal saves are ignore. That difference in the purpose of the question is what resulted in my reponses.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Ostsol said:
Ah, so it was a question of the value of an item, rather than if it could work in general situations. My interpretation of the question was more like the issue of the Exarch Power Defend, which only works when the Exarch is the only targettable model. The Combat Shield can work any time that normal saves are ignore. That difference in the purpose of the question is what resulted in my reponses.

No problem.

Valerian
 
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