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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
This is my first post about my army, and my first post in general in this or any gw topic forum . . big steps :)

The 1000 point list I have been using to good effect is as follows.

HQ: 195
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Tervigon, Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs, Psy: Catalyst - 195

Elites: 115
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Zoanthrope (1) - 60
Venomthrope (1) - 55

Troops: 600
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Warrior Brood (3), Scything Talons (3), Deathspitters (2), Barbed Strangler - 110
Warrior Brood (3), Scything Talons (3), Deathspitters (2), Venom Cannon - 115
Termagant Brood (15), Fleshborers - 75
Hormagaunt Brood (16) - 96
Genestealer Brood (12), Toxin Sacs - 204

Fast: 90
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Gargoyle Brood (15) - 90

1k exactly. I've won 2 in 3 games so far with this list, but I am yet to win a game against Dark Eldar, and have yet to play versus the new necrons. Space wolves are also troublesome, but I have that with every list not just this one.
In any objective game this list is awesome, opponents generally cant kill enough creatures, meaning i usually win or draw such games. annhialation games become more challenging as I usually look to completely destroy my opponent. I know its weak versus armoured lists (hence not great vs DE - raiders/venoms) but im going to my first tournament this year, so want to tweak this into all-round awesomeness. (being able to show off my conversions would be cool too, but i'm less fussed about that point.)


I also have a "beer and giggles" list just to field as many monstrous creatures as possible, whilst maintaining some sort of competitiveness to it.

HQ: 1 Hive tyrant - h venom, lash and bonesword; Troops: 1 Tervigon - toxin, adrenal, onslaught, 5 termagants; Heavy: 3 Carnifexes - Scything(2) frag spines, adrenal glands, bio plasma.

only played this once, but it tore through 20 chaos marines, abaddon, plus a predator Actually felt sorry for abaddon, his 10 companions melted from the fex's plasma, he got hit by paroxysm, and then got involved with spawned gaunts and then the HT and all 3 fex's. ended up with 12 s10 wounds and 2 saveable wounds at I4. needless to say he died horribly, and only killed half a dozen gaunts :)
 

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Hello and welcome to LO first of all! :D

Might as well get right to business though, your competitive list lacks any serious anti tank. This means that any mech list will currently walk all over it without much issue. Nid's MUST build anti tank into our lists because mech is such a big weakness of ours, being even slightly deficient in anti tank fire spells trouble for us Nid players. It's no good having hordes of guants if you can't get to the enemy!

So here's what Id do.

Lose the warrior broods, the zoanthrope and venomthrope (they're no good as single models, you need more than that. Zoanthropes also usually need a mycetic spore or they die), 2 genestealers and the hormaguants. In their place, bring the termaguants up to 30 strong and get yourself a tyranid prime for the hQ (Dual bonesword, Adrenal glands, tallons.) He goes in the 30 strong termaguant unit. You now also have a troops choice tervigon.

Next, get yourself 4 Hive guard. This should combat the lack of anti tank you currently suffer from.

Finally use the points left over to grab both upgrades on your gargoyles. You might just have enough to grab a venomthope, but thats up to you.


As an aside, as fun as mass MC's are, you should never mix range and CC weapons on a monstrous creature, 10 termaguants is the minimum brood size and carnifex's are out performed in every concievable way by trygons, and yet cost the same. Something to think about.


Anyway hope that helps :) Welcome to LO!
 

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Discussion Starter #3 (Edited)
Hi Heirodule, thanks for the welcome and for the tips. I shall be running the changes you mentioned except using a pair of zoanthropes and a pair of hive guard - The blasts are handy for crowd control or for popping off battlesuits' drones etc. That and I only have 3 hive guard, not 4.

May I ask why not the hormagaunts, they provide a very nice distraction and can actually cause a lot of mayhem if ignored. i like sending them against unwary heavy weapon squads etc.

so to recap this is what ill be running

HQ: 100
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Tyranid Prime, 2xBoneswords, Scything Talons, Adrenal Glands - 100

Elites: 220
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Zoanthrope (1) - 60
Zoanthrope (1) - 60
Hive Guard (2) - 100

Troops: 520
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Termagant Brood (30), Fleshborers - 150
Tervigon, Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs, Psy: Catalyst, Scything Talons - 200
Genestealer Brood (10), Toxin Sacs - 170

Fast: 160
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Gargoyle Brood (20), Toxin sacs, Adrenal Glands - 160

= 1000

(if my math is correct)

Alternatively drop 5 gargoyles and pair up the Zoanthropes in a Mycetic Spore. Also Added Scything Talons to the Tervigon since I had 5 spare points. My theory being this list I can field right now, as opposed to in a weeks time when I can get another HG, but I shall browse for another in the mean-time. Dont know about anyone else but I much prefer metal models to the finecast. Something about their weight and feel, resin feels like your not holding anything.

Also as said the MC list was purely for fun, but I disagree trygons are better. I use screamer killers, so I can actually hide them in cover, and a triple blast of bio-plasma certainly upsets most people, and because I run them in a squad, grey knight get upset because thier 3 Force wepon wounds only kill 1 'fex :D. besides charging a vehicle with 5 attacks per model which automatically penetrates or glances near every armor value is very nice. in 1500 I would probably use 4 'fex's in spores just to really annoy my foe. I do have another 1k List (proper one this time) utilising more warriors but i cant get the balance right. Plus its irking me primes cant go in pods with the warriors. Every other transport lets you mix IC and units - GRRRR
 

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Dont know about anyone else but I much prefer metal models to the finecast. Something about their weight and feel, resin feels like your not holding anything.

in 1500 I would probably use 4 'fex's in spores just to really annoy my foe. I do have another 1k List (proper one this time) utilising more warriors but i cant get the balance right.
I totally agree, the metal was much better, it made you feel like that you're actually getting $33 worth of metal for a Hive Guard. Now you have to pay $40 for something super-light, it makes it feel like a rip-off scam by GW. Anyway, not going there...

In 1500 points games, or in fact games of any amount of points, four Carnifexes in Mycetic Spores is ILLEGAL. The maximum you could have is three, as you can only take spores when there is one in the brood. Taking three would be a massive points drain, would use up all your Heavy Support choices and Trygons/Tyrannofexes are better. Even the good ol' brood of Biovores usually gets its points back more than the Carnifex.

The only thing I find wrong about this list is the 30 Termagants. I know Heirodule said to do that, but in the game, it's a real pain to set up and manouevre during the game, plus it gives you less models to use for your Tervigon's spawn. I would also reverse your set up of elites choices. I suggest removing 8 Termagants from your brood, and having your elites so it's like:

Hive Guard (1) - 50
Hive Guard (1) - 50
Zoanthrope Brood (160 pts.)
--> Zoanthropes (2) - 120
--> Mycetic Spore (1) - 40
 

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May I ask why not the hormagaunts, they provide a very nice distraction and can actually cause a lot of mayhem if ignored. i like sending them against unwary heavy weapon squads etc
Perfectly good choice don't get me wrong, you just don't have the points in the list to put them in :) Anti tank > Hormaguants


Also as said the MC list was purely for fun, but I disagree trygons are better. I use screamer killers, so I can actually hide them in cover, and a triple blast of bio-plasma certainly upsets most people, and because I run them in a squad, grey knight get upset because thier 3 Force wepon wounds only kill 1 'fex :D.
Trygons do more damage in assault with 2 extra attacks and a higher weapon skill (WS5 is HUGE compared to WS3), have shooting weaponry, are FAR harder to kill thanks to two extra wounds, are faster (fleet is huge on an MC), can upgrade to prime which really stuffs over grey knights, testing on 3D6 really makes them suffer, they're less likely to rage and screw you over at a bad moment and are actually BETTER at vehicle killing than carnifex's. Some maths to support this:

VS Av 10, moved 6" or less

Trygon - 7 attacks, 75% chance to hit gives 5.25 hits, 83% chance to penetrate - nets you 4.375 penetrating hits

Carnifex - 5 attacks, 75% chance to hit gives 3.75 hits, auto pen so 3.75 penetrating hits

Vs AV 11, moving 6" or less

Trygon - 7 attacks, 75% chance to hit gives 5.25 hits, 72% chance to penetrate gives you 3.79 penetrating hits

Carnifex - 5 attacks, 75% chance to hit for 3.75 hits, auto pen so 3.75 penetrating hits

VS Av 10, moved more than 6"

Trygon - 7 attacks, 30% chance to hit, gives you 2.1 hits with a 83% chance to penetrate gives you 1.73 pens

Carnifex - 5 attacks, 30% chance to hit gives you 1.5 hits, auto pens meaning you get 1.5 pens

Vs AV 11, moved over 6"

Trygon - 7 attacks, 30% chance to hit, gives you 2.1 hits, 72% chance to pen gives you 1.54 pens

Carnifex - 5 attacks, 30% chance to hit, gives you 1.5 hits, auto pen gives 1.5 penetrating hits.


Also im amazed you get cover on those fexs. Bearing in mind 50% of the model has to be covered, AND you'd have to have two of the fex's covered in order to get a save? You must be playing with some gargantuan terrain pieces.

Anyway hopefully that's convinced you exactly how superior trygons are to fex's, literally the ONLY thing combat fexs do better than trygons is kill land raiders. and thats what zoanthropes and T-fexs are for. For an extra 20 points the trygons are so so superior fex's aren't even worth considering.


Oh and one last thing, your list is okay, but singular zoanthropes are too easy to kill. Put them together, trust me. Ideally youd have more anti tank but its hardly un-useable :)

EDIT:
it's a real pain to set up and manouevre during the game, plus it gives you less models to use for your Tervigon's spawn.
Perfectly true, but in a competitive list that's something you have to live with. Reducing the model count too low makes it far easier for opponents to either weather the storm of attacks from your guants and could see the unit struggle if it takes a few casualties.

Put it this way, it works perfectly well for all the green tide ork players out there doesn't it? :)
 

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Debating in favour for the Trygon again I see. It's as if you're a priest for the 'Must use Trygon' religion. I'll try not to say anything that would make your write essays on why the Trygon is better ;)

As for the manoeuvrability issue, it makes sense against most other armies, and you've forgotten the fact that Biovores turn Green Tides into Green Paste. I was also trying to find a way to make points for a Mycetic Spore for his Zoanthropes.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Yeah guys totally right but the 4 fex's. Cant use em in spores cos you only have 3 HS slots. ah well. Still, you guys remember the really really old fex's, the ones that look kinda like crabs? well they can hide behind a 1-storey building completely, being less than 3" tall. but yeah aside from that, I like marching up to things saying "hey im S10" and "your dead" before i roll any dice. Plus terminators/paladins really really hate the combo. bio plasma cooks most of them down and the S10 power wounds finish the job. Thta and i only have 1 trygon, but have 3 fex's ready and waiting. As i Said its a fun list, not looking to win with that one.


Back to the main list though, "Alternatively drop 5 gargoyles and pair up the Zoanthropes in a Mycetic Spore" quickest and cheapest way i can think of, or drop 8 termagants so i have more for spawning. Currently I have 30 built (12 to paint) fleshborer termagants, 18 Devourer termagants, and 12 in a box waiting to be built. Not knowing how picky tourney players are, I'm tempted to take the devourer ones for "spawned gants" - yes i know they cant have devourers - but it visibly distinguishes them. That or I have to cook up a diff paint scheme. All in all 60 termagants. Should be plenty to see me thru a game right? Unless perhaps I do what I did last weekend and spawn 9 times over 2 games :)

And hey, fex's are so much cooler than trygons using current rules. 6 S5 AP5 hits or a S7 AP2 blast? I know what i'd take. Also, Trygon vs walker? Av12 or 13, this includes new necron vehicles with thier shielding, and also trygon/fex vs other monster. eg Demon prince or dread knight or wraithlord. Or perhaps assaulting through cover? And "you'd have to have two of the fex's covered in order to get a save?" - yes 2 fex's have to be at least 50% in cover, or near a venomthrope and your sorted, Trygon being 6" tall is virtually never in cover, unless theres a titan on the field he can hide behind. If you are gonna claim trygon is better you need to compare all the possibilities :p

PS: I love my baby 'fex's and no-one is gonna take them away!
 

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And hey, fex's are so much cooler than trygons using current rules. 6 S5 AP5 hits or a S7 AP2 blast? I know what i'd take.
Alright, if we're really going to go so in depth about it here, that blast is almost entirely neutralised by cover, so you'll be very fortunate to score more than 1, possibly 2 wounds with that. Against large horde blobs thats also not going to do anything worth shouting about, whereas those hits should at least bump off a couple. In cover, both attacks are near worthless against hordes.

Also, Trygon vs walker?
Very well. Against a dreadnought

Trygon - 7 attacks, 89% chance to hit gives 6.2 hits, a 58% chance to roll a 7 or higher gives you a total of 3.63 penetrating hits

The trygon then simultaneously takes 0.83 wounds, assuming he lacks adrenal glands.

Carnifex - Takes 1.10 wounds BEFORE it strikes, then hits with 5 attacks, 75% chance to hit gives 3.75 hits, 91% chance to penetrate gives you 3.43 penetrates.

Adding adrenal glands doesn't matter either, the Trygon still beats the carnifex 4.5 pens to 3.64

Av12 or 13,
As far as im aware the only vehicle with rear armour 12 is the stormraven. In this case the trygon scores 3.045 and the fex scores 3.43.

this includes new necron vehicles with thier shielding,
Quantum shielding does not apply to the rear armour of a vehicle as far as im aware. Other than that I can't think of a rear armour 13 model appart from the titan, which would just be silly.

and also trygon/fex vs other monster. eg Demon prince or dread knight or wraithlord.

Slaanesh Prince

Against Trygon, Prince does 1.32 wounds, Trygon does 2.2 wounds or 1.7 against a Tzeentch mark

Against the Fex, Prince does 1.32 wounds, Fex does 0.94 wounds or 0.72 against a Tzeentch mark (Ws3 really really hurts here)

Dreadknight (with sword, as thats the most common CC build)

Against the Trygon, Dreadknight does 1.6 wounds with a force weapon, so dead trygon probably, but the trygon does 1.7 wounds back

Against the fex the dreadknight does exactly 2 wounds with the same force weapon (so chances are the fex bites it before getting to swing.) If it does swing back, it does 2 wounds. The fex is not very likely to get the chance however.

Or perhaps assaulting through cover?
Doesn't really help the fex that much though. Unless you give it AG on top of everything else, you still go at I3 so behind most decent CC units.

or near a venomthrope and your sorted,
Which works both ways, so is kind of irrelevant

If you are gonna claim trygon is better you need to compare all the possibilities
So all possibilities compared.... Trygon still beats the combat fex by a country mile.

PS: I love my baby 'fex's and no-one is gonna take them away!
Please don't mistake my intentions, (and this goes for you too Vrrmick) Fex's are incredibly cool model and if you've got them then by all means use them. By no matter which way you look at it, fexs are not "Better" than trygons. If you like the look and think they're cooler then by all means, knock yourself out and have fun! But they simply aren't "better." Ranged fexs are a totally different story, but for close combat, you can't even compare the two.

So no Vrrmick, im not a priest of the "Must use trygons" religion. I am, however, a priest of the "If you want a CC monstrous creature, Trygons are better in every way than carnifexs" religon. Or as I like to call it, "The Church of common sense" :p
 

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Discussion Starter #9
lol. feels like a sermon. either way i im not buying 2 more trygons, unless they go back to S8T7 like they were in imperial armor, and being a beast (which to be fair it should - its a giant ravener) also dont forget 40 points less for a fex than a bog standard trygon. fex with AG, Bio and grenages is still cheaper than a trygon. add the bonuses for comparison - things are different. I4 on the charge is nice too. but I will agree in many situation trygon is still better. I tend to find it dies first because people think it is worse than it really is. my baby 'fexs are stealthy though, so they ignore them till its too late, they see tervigon as a much bigger threat, and somehow always go "WHAT!!" when i explain its 6 wounds and its spawning rules. no idea why . . . :)

quantum shielding is all armour btw. until a pen is scored.
 

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add the bonuses for comparison - things are different.
Just for the record adding AG only helps the trygon, it scores more wounds against any of the MC's where as the fex doesn't because it was already wounding on 2's and it still outperforms the fex at killing rear armour 10, 11 whilst becoming better at 12. Fex wins above 12 though. And whilst a basic fex is cheaper, your one is only 15 points cheaper rather than 40.

Anyway I think thats quite enough of that, litterally don't think there's anything else that could be argued there :)

The main list, I don't think you need to change anything. Running the Hive guard solo is far better than the thropes, which I recon you just have to slog together. Getting a spore in this instance would be a bad idea, you don't want your anti tank locked up in reserve without a bonus. 99 times out of a hundred you'd use a spore, but you need to be able to attempt to kill as many vehicles as you can, and with your anti tank being lighter than optimal you need every shot you can get as quick as you can get it. Also diluting either the gargoyles or termaguants is just going to hurt you, you need those bodies to keep the kills up.

So in summary, that last list looks pretty good.

Edit: Just got a friend to check quantum shielding for me, he says its only front and side....
 

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Discussion Starter #11 (Edited)
. . . Just got a friend to check quantum shielding for me, he says its only front and side....
Now that means I gotta go pound on a collegue, since I was playing under the impression its affected all armour values.which tbh makes sense, why would an energy shield not cover your backside?

But to clarify, of the 3 options which would you do?

Hive Guard Brood (2), Zoanthrope (1), Zoanthrope (1)
Hive Guard (1), Hive Guard (1), Zoanthrope Brood (2) OR
Hive Guard Brood (2), Zoanthrope Brood (2)

For the purposes of target killing and survivability I'd usually separate the zoans, so devastartors would only kill 1 even if i failed all 4 invuls from lascannons etc (as an example) and they serve to soak up a lot of damage from heavy weapons which i'd rather not have on my tervigon, or in this case the hive guard (who cant be insta-killed so I dont care if I group them) Plus should I be popping transports I can split the warp blasts and lances to good effect. one pops a rhino, the other pops the squad that was hiding inside (again as an example).

Feel free to bash away my niavity (check spelling on that one) since this is the first time i've really written a list to win, rather than a fluffy or fun list.
 

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Discussion Starter #12 (Edited)
Okay, got a 2nd tourney coming up, 1250pts, 4 games and local amongst friends and collegues.

If I take the same list what can I add - trying to scale up. thinking of a gant brood wielding devourers (i have 18 modelled) and it wont subtract from my spawning pool. Heres my current list plus 16 devourer gants, and a Broodlord. (could alternately take a tyrannofex, but a 1 model difference in lists seems silly to me)

HQ: 90
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Tyranid Prime, 2xBoneswords, Scything Talons - 90

Elites: 270
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Zoanthrope (1) - 60
Zoanthrope (1) - 60
Hive Guard (3) - 150

Troops: 730
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Termagant Brood (15), Devourers - 150
Termagant Brood (30), Fleshborers - 150
Tervigon, Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs, Psy: Catalyst - 195
Genestealer Brood (11), Toxin Sacs, Broodlord w/Scything Talons - 235


Fast: 160
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Gargoyle Brood (20), Toxin sacs, Adrenal Glands - 160

= 1250
 
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