Core makeup question
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I haven't tried the list yet, but I made one with all wolves for Sylvanians.. I think against mostly infantry armies it would do well, but against skirmishers, heavy shooters, and stuff like ogres it wouldn't really.
Skellies and zombies may suck, but they're not meant to kill. They're meant to hold units in place while you flank them then use fear to chase them all away. And they do that very well, don't blow them off because of their stats on paper.
Skellies and zombies may suck, but they're not meant to kill. They're meant to hold units in place while you flank them then use fear to chase them all away. And they do that very well, don't blow them off because of their stats on paper.
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Yea, what he said.strewart said:
I'm a fairly new player too, and still kinda learning the ropes of my army. And it's only really been within my last 3 or 4 games or so that I'm really starting to learn the power of fear.
You see, if you check out JovanWolf's thread on this page, I'm the one that he's referring to about having a really bad losing streak. And I realize now that it wasn't because the armies suck, it's because I didn't utilize it properly.
I used to think that all fear was good for was making an enemy unit run away when you charge it, and that might not always happen because they have to pass a leadership test. But no, you can really make fear work to your advantage, and it can quickly change the tides of a game.
You think the Skeletons suck so bad? Well, you obviously haven't had your regiment of Skeletons defeat a Lizardman Stegadon in combat, have it flee, and then catch it with your Skeletons, destroying it. Yes, as long as the unit isn't Immune to Psychology, cause fear or terror themselves (making them immune to it), or unbreakable, your Skeletons don't have to kill to destroy, if you know what I mean.
The key to Skeletons and Zombies is numbers. You charge a unit with your regiment of Skeletons. You raise another regiment on charged units flanks (or rear). The unit you charged with holds for 2 combat phases (yours and your opponents, and you can make that happen with raising skeletons into your regiments, making it a big unit), and you get a flank or rear charge with that new, raised unit. Even if your skeletons don't cause a single casuality, they will almost certainly win combat. Why? Because the numbers in both your regiments combine. So you will most likely outnumber. Then if the flanking or rear charge regiment has a unit strength of at least 5 (again, easy with Vampire Counts), you will get a flank or rear charge bonus during combat resolution (worth 1 or 2 points, depending on if it's a flank [1] or rear charge [2]), take away their rank bonuses (which is 3 up to 3 points in combat resolution they don't get) while keeping yours, plus a standard bearer, and however many wounds you did do.
Just as an example, let's use Skaven. You charge a regiment of 25 clanrats with a regiment of 20 skeletons. You also raise a new regiment of skeletons to the flank of the clanrats during your magic phase. During the first combat, you might not deal damage. Let's say you even lose combat. So overall, let's say you lost (again, just for example) 5 skeletons overall from your regiment. Then in their combat phase, they will probably win that combat again. So let's say overall, you lose about 10 skeletons. But now it's your turn again. You now declare a charge with that flank regiment that you summoned earlier. If the unit strength is 5 or more, the clanrats automatically have to take a panic test, which can send them fleeing. But say, for the sake of arguement, they pass. They hold. Now you're gonna deal some wounds from the flank. The clanrats no longer have a rank bonus. And you get +1 for the flank charge. Even if you deal no wounds, you're going to get, in combat resolution, 1 point for a flank charge, up to 3 points for ranks, 1 point for a standard bearer, and 1 point for outnumbering. They'll get 1 point for a standard bearer...
So without wounds, that is a 6-1 combat resolution, in your favor. Then you factor in any wounds you did... you're most likely gonna with combat. And since you cause fear, and outnumber, the clanrats automatically have to flee. And you have a chance to chase them down. The panic can then ripple through any nearby units, causing them to flee as well. It puts your army into a good position.
Oh, and did I mention, that this is probably the weaker way of doing this? There are spells and items that you can get that will allow you to have those summoned regiments charge as soon as they are summoned. If one of your wizards has Vanhel's Danse Macabre, or the Book of Arkhan, you can charge a regiment during your charge phase with your main skeleton regiment, during your magic phase summon a new regiment of skeletons in the flank, and then charge them during your magic phase with a Book of Arkhan or Vanhel's Danse Macabre.
Yea, on paper, skeletons suck. But their strength isn't in their weapon skill. Their strength is in their intangibles. And their strength is a very good one.
As for your other question, well, which is better depends on your style of play. For the type of game that I play, Necrarch is the best. Because I'm not worried on the combat that my individual characters can provide. I'm worried about their effectiveness in the magic phase. I'm worried about summoning those new regiments of skeletons and zombies so that I can get those rear and flank charges.
If you want combat, then the Blood Dragon is for you. They are by far the best combat bloodline. The Lahmians offer something else. They will probably never be beaten in initiative order, but they won't deal the damage that a Blood Dragon will. But they can do other things as well, such as make enemy units fight each other.
I would prefer the Lahmians of those 2. But that's not to say they are better. It would just be more my style of play. Most VC players seem to like the Blood Dragons. And with good reason.
P.S. Despite my rant about the skeletons and utilizing them properly, Ghouls are good. I've never had a chance to use them myself, but a group of skirmishers with 2 poisoned attacks each, with a pretty nice ws and toughness for a core unit... I like the Ghouls. Many also like the Dire Wolves. Best advice, toy around with different things, and find what works best for your style of play.
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Well unfortunatley, except for some of the bigger units (mainly our Vampire Counts and Lords, but also Black Knights and the Black Coach, for instance) not many Vampire Counts units are there to deal damage. Most of them seem to have low stats, and won't win combat through weapon skill, but through numbers and manuevering (i.e. summoning new regiments on flanks)
As far as a statline goes, Ghouls are probably the most powerful. They have a better WS than Skeletons, as well as a better Toughness, plus 2 attacks instead of one, that are poisoned. They are also skirmishers, so there is a -1 to hit penalty when shooting at them. They cause fear, but they aren't unbreakable, so if they lose combat, they can flee. They also can't carry a standard, nor be upgraded with armor.
Dire Wolves have a near identical statline to the Ghouls, except their toughness is the same as Skeletons, and they only have 1 attack. But because they are a fast calvary, they cost 10 per model, instead of 8. Can't be upgraded with armor, nor carry a standard.
All around, your Skeletons will be the most reliable units. They will not break. They can deal some damage against other core units. I've even beat a Stegadon in combat with Skeletons, by dealing wounds to it, and making it flee (actually, I've won combat against Stegadons with both Zombies and Skeletons). The armor of Skeletons will allow them to avoid some wounds dealt to them as well.
I would still recommend that you have some Skeletons regiments in your army. You can field your characters in there to protect them, they wil never run, and provide the ability of holding up a unit while others come in from the flanks. Definatley, if you can, use some Ghouls. They are good. But I wouldn't use only Ghouls for your core choices. But I suppose that is a viable option.
As far as a statline goes, Ghouls are probably the most powerful. They have a better WS than Skeletons, as well as a better Toughness, plus 2 attacks instead of one, that are poisoned. They are also skirmishers, so there is a -1 to hit penalty when shooting at them. They cause fear, but they aren't unbreakable, so if they lose combat, they can flee. They also can't carry a standard, nor be upgraded with armor.
Dire Wolves have a near identical statline to the Ghouls, except their toughness is the same as Skeletons, and they only have 1 attack. But because they are a fast calvary, they cost 10 per model, instead of 8. Can't be upgraded with armor, nor carry a standard.
All around, your Skeletons will be the most reliable units. They will not break. They can deal some damage against other core units. I've even beat a Stegadon in combat with Skeletons, by dealing wounds to it, and making it flee (actually, I've won combat against Stegadons with both Zombies and Skeletons). The armor of Skeletons will allow them to avoid some wounds dealt to them as well.
I would still recommend that you have some Skeletons regiments in your army. You can field your characters in there to protect them, they wil never run, and provide the ability of holding up a unit while others come in from the flanks. Definatley, if you can, use some Ghouls. They are good. But I wouldn't use only Ghouls for your core choices. But I suppose that is a viable option.
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wolves and ghoul army would get obliterated... and if anyone that I know took a list like that I would help his oppenent crush him as so hed never use it again... and to the second or third poster abotu making a stegadon run... they dont run because of fear 
they are terror causing
they are terror causing
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told ya lol... why does everyone on here keep thinking a VC army cant have skellieS?!?!?!
No skellies? Easy, my army hasn't got any and it is still to lose a battle in my hands. It does use zombies though, and I guess you meant them as well.
I still think an army with very few could work, in theory anyway. It would definitely need to raise some though, and it would be a hell of a lot harder to play and would flat out suck against some armies. Definitely not an all rounder choice. But thats my theory talking...
I still think an army with very few could work, in theory anyway. It would definitely need to raise some though, and it would be a hell of a lot harder to play and would flat out suck against some armies. Definitely not an all rounder choice. But thats my theory talking...
I like the image of a mainly creature army, but then I'm more of a modeller than a gamer...
I imagine something like this: http://gt.us.games-workshop.com/Results_Coverage/Minneapolis/WHFB/Eric_Hagen/gallery.htm
I imagine something like this: http://gt.us.games-workshop.com/Results_Coverage/Minneapolis/WHFB/Eric_Hagen/gallery.htm
Skellies and zombies are too useful to go without. That said, if you have the casting dice available, you don't necessarily have to start with them on the table. You can summon tons of them, particularly the zombies. One thing about the skellies is that if you take a small unit of them and give light armor and perhaps spears, you can summon more identically equipped skellies to add to the unit, which means that you get more out of your summoning since you are calling up slightly better equipped troops, rather than just hand weapon/shield skeletons.
Truth be told, though... I'd rather have more wights in my list and fewer skeletons and zombies. At 12 points each with Heavy Armor and Killing Blow these guys are a great deal.
Truth be told, though... I'd rather have more wights in my list and fewer skeletons and zombies. At 12 points each with Heavy Armor and Killing Blow these guys are a great deal.
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yeah I agree my list is packed full of wights I love em.. I have 20 GG and 15 knights (not in the same unit no worries) also I have two wight lords... but I also field two units of armored skellies... my army works great... strewart yes I did mean zombies aswell... also Im very sure that an army could function great without those units BUT for new players... its key to have them... VC in themselves are hard to leanr and use and for new player its even harder... lol anyways I prefer to have my list backed up by good old skellies besides they are too much fun to paint lol and so fast too
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The last tournament i went to was a 1500 point list torny. I decided, as i'm a MASSIVE fan of the undead horde to play a mainly Core army. The list look a little somthing like this:
Heros:
Necromancer with Staff of Damnation (my favorite item)
Necromancer General with Black Periapt and Ring of Night
Blood Dragon Battle Standard bearer with Flayed Hauberk and Talisman of Protection. (WS 8 character in a any battle without lords is awesome!)
Core:
X15 Skellies, Full command, light armour
X15 Skellies, Full command, light armour
X15 Zombies, Musician. (giving zombies a banner in tournaments is gifting your opponent 100 victory points)
X15 Zombies, Musician.
X6 Dire Wolves
X6 Dire Wolves
Special:
X20 Graveguard, full command, Banner of the Barrows.
The army did exactly what an undead army should do, it linded itself up in a (S-Z-GG-Z-S) formation with the Direwolves on the flanks. The tactics like any core undead army was to let the enemy charge you by spending the first turn or two stood still raising into the zombies and skellies, tacking the charge then BAM!hit the enemy in the flanks, fly off a bunch of random spells and then hit them with Staff of Damnation...made um run every time.
NEVER underestimate Skellies and Zombies. The first battle i played in that tourney was against Bretonianas and my GG were hit by a unit of 8 Questing Knights with two paladins, one a combat one and the other the Battle standard bearer with some banner which cancels out my rank bonus. In one turn i lost all but 3 of the Graveguard, but in the following turn the skellies, zombies and wolves hit home with the Staff of Damnation backing them up and destroyed them...can anyone do the $$$ sound? Massive victory points for the unit, 100 for general, 100 for battle standard. THink i made around 800 off that one unit...not bad for skellies and zombies.
Only lost one battle in that tourney, to the eventual winner who played X2 Khorne exhalted champs on Daemonic Steeds, X2 Undivided Chariots, X2 unis of 6 dogs, 3 Dragon Orges, 4 Orges, X6 Chosen Knights of Khorne full command, 1 lvl 1 wizard with 2 dispell scrolls. Can anyone say ouch?
But anyways, back to the topic: I'm soon going to the Warhammer Doubles Torny in Nottingham and we're both playing VC. Thanks to some sound advice, my army is still very much Ghouly, but does include some zombies as a unit holder uper and flank protection. A Ghouls army can work, but you must still rely on what you have in the Codex. The Doubles torny is 2X500 point border patrol lists and now has 2X15 man units of Ghouls, 16 GG, 8 wolves, 16 zombies, 2 Xspirit hosts, 2x strigoi Vamp thrall with summon ghouls and iron sinews.
The GG and zombie move up the centre to hold up the enemy, while spirit hosts and wolves move up to flank the enemy. The Ghouls move up with vamps "inside" them, which on the first turn summon up their ghouly friends behind enemy wizards, artycrew or whatever is easy to kill. By then hitting the front of an enemy last unit with 2 Vampires (8 attacks S6 re-rolling misses) 2 poisened each from the ghouls, and then hitting the flank from fast moving Wolves and/or Ethereal spirit hosts the enemy won't stand a chance in such a small battle.The army plans to hit the enemy from pretty much all sides on one flank and then move accross as a horde.
I play tested this list once and destroyed my apponent. By pressuring your appoinent from so many sides you make them make mistakes. In the play test my apponent moved his wizard away from the summoned ghouls, but at the same time block line of sight to one of his units he had wnated to cast a spell on. Remeber, only half the battle is won by the models you have on the field, the rest is up to how you use them.
Heros:
Necromancer with Staff of Damnation (my favorite item)
Necromancer General with Black Periapt and Ring of Night
Blood Dragon Battle Standard bearer with Flayed Hauberk and Talisman of Protection. (WS 8 character in a any battle without lords is awesome!)
Core:
X15 Skellies, Full command, light armour
X15 Skellies, Full command, light armour
X15 Zombies, Musician. (giving zombies a banner in tournaments is gifting your opponent 100 victory points)
X15 Zombies, Musician.
X6 Dire Wolves
X6 Dire Wolves
Special:
X20 Graveguard, full command, Banner of the Barrows.
The army did exactly what an undead army should do, it linded itself up in a (S-Z-GG-Z-S) formation with the Direwolves on the flanks. The tactics like any core undead army was to let the enemy charge you by spending the first turn or two stood still raising into the zombies and skellies, tacking the charge then BAM!hit the enemy in the flanks, fly off a bunch of random spells and then hit them with Staff of Damnation...made um run every time.
NEVER underestimate Skellies and Zombies. The first battle i played in that tourney was against Bretonianas and my GG were hit by a unit of 8 Questing Knights with two paladins, one a combat one and the other the Battle standard bearer with some banner which cancels out my rank bonus. In one turn i lost all but 3 of the Graveguard, but in the following turn the skellies, zombies and wolves hit home with the Staff of Damnation backing them up and destroyed them...can anyone do the $$$ sound? Massive victory points for the unit, 100 for general, 100 for battle standard. THink i made around 800 off that one unit...not bad for skellies and zombies.
Only lost one battle in that tourney, to the eventual winner who played X2 Khorne exhalted champs on Daemonic Steeds, X2 Undivided Chariots, X2 unis of 6 dogs, 3 Dragon Orges, 4 Orges, X6 Chosen Knights of Khorne full command, 1 lvl 1 wizard with 2 dispell scrolls. Can anyone say ouch?
But anyways, back to the topic: I'm soon going to the Warhammer Doubles Torny in Nottingham and we're both playing VC. Thanks to some sound advice, my army is still very much Ghouly, but does include some zombies as a unit holder uper and flank protection. A Ghouls army can work, but you must still rely on what you have in the Codex. The Doubles torny is 2X500 point border patrol lists and now has 2X15 man units of Ghouls, 16 GG, 8 wolves, 16 zombies, 2 Xspirit hosts, 2x strigoi Vamp thrall with summon ghouls and iron sinews.
The GG and zombie move up the centre to hold up the enemy, while spirit hosts and wolves move up to flank the enemy. The Ghouls move up with vamps "inside" them, which on the first turn summon up their ghouly friends behind enemy wizards, artycrew or whatever is easy to kill. By then hitting the front of an enemy last unit with 2 Vampires (8 attacks S6 re-rolling misses) 2 poisened each from the ghouls, and then hitting the flank from fast moving Wolves and/or Ethereal spirit hosts the enemy won't stand a chance in such a small battle.The army plans to hit the enemy from pretty much all sides on one flank and then move accross as a horde.
I play tested this list once and destroyed my apponent. By pressuring your appoinent from so many sides you make them make mistakes. In the play test my apponent moved his wizard away from the summoned ghouls, but at the same time block line of sight to one of his units he had wnated to cast a spell on. Remeber, only half the battle is won by the models you have on the field, the rest is up to how you use them.
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You're right, they don't run because of fear. But they still run. They aren't unbreakableBig_Canadian said:and to the second or third poster abotu making a stegadon run... they dont run because of fear
So when you have a unit of Zombies attacking the Stegadon, that has 20+ models in it, you're gonna get outnumbering, 3 ranks, and a standard. That's 5 points off the bat. Plus, when the Stegadon gets a bad roll, can't do 5 wounds to you to negate the CR you get off the bat, and you inflict a wound upon it, a leadership of 5 isn't too hard to break
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yeah 2 units of 25 skeletons is more than enough... feel free to take ghouls
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yeah your right... if he doesnt like skellies he shouldnt be playing VC lol
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