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What Happened to the Cults?

  • Cult Troops are better than they were before.

    Votes: 28 42.4%
  • Cult Troops are worse than they were before.

    Votes: 2 3.0%
  • Some got better, some got worse.

    Votes: 34 51.5%
  • Overall, they are about as good as they were before.

    Votes: 2 3.0%
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Festo Diata
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Did Cult Troops get better, worse, or stay the same with the release of the new Codex? Did some get better while some worse? Post your opinion, specifically relating to Cult Troops you use in your armies.
 

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Topic Creator Deluxe
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The Berzerkers are very much better now than they were before. The removal of Bloodfrenzy is great. With a bit of skill, the opponent could have the Zerkers chase a drone around the table for ages. I would like to have the Khornate Chainaxes back and some of the Champions special weapons, but overall I feel that it's a good trade and they're more playable.
They doesnt got their Champions that could take out entire squads on their own, but now the unit matters more. They are still hard asa nails and one of the best CC units in the game - as it should be.
 

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Bloodbowl Hooligan
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I voted for some got better some got worse as i only know about berzerkers, in my opinion they got better with the better ws and fc, the only thing i miss is chain axes but u gotta take the rough with the smooth.
 

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One Awesome Dude
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I think they did get better, but the point cost is a little more...pricey. Anybody else think that? I feel like we are getting less bang for our buck these days.
 

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I have mixed feelings about this...

Khorne. It always irritated me that units like Blood Fangs from the Space Wolves got a berserkers charge, and Khorne BERSERKERS did not. Now they have furios charge; they should have had that to begin with. I like the Weapon skill upgrade, but it's negligable. Still as tough as before and can still put out a decent amount of attacks. I REALLY REALLY miss blood frenzy. The point was to get these guys into H2H and that was a great way to do it. It was the closest thing to fleet that we had.

Won some, lost some. Should have kept the Frenzy.

Nurgle. Feel no Pain with high toughness roxxors my soxxors. These are the best attrition troops in the game IMO. There weapon selection however, is absolute crap for that goal. They have no heavy weapon choices, which doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I won't argue that meltas aren't great, but would have liked to see them with some better range weapons. Blight gernades are still nice for H2H.

Won most, lost nothing. Should have provided heavy weapon choices.

Tzeentch. They traded their extra wound for 4+ invulnerable saves... not a bad trade off all things considered. I remember when you needed S5 or more to hurt them at all. These guys just keep changing in really odd ways. Sorceres seriously got hurt with having to make psychic tests now; that was their greatest asset when fighting other armies, especially anti-psyker.

Won some, lost some. Should have something extra for Sorcerers.

Slaneesh. Why do I have to pay even more for their standard weaponry when they're already more expensive than normal troops? Still a good shooty squad, but not at that price. Just a wierd combination with the high initiative, probably should have had more H2H items than not. I still can't justify taking a single squad of these guys, but I'll use their icon on other squads.

Won nothing, lost most. Should be much cheaper with more H2H options.

As far as "general" feelings, I find it pretty tough to use cult troops to great extents with their point costs. 1-2 small squads at most. With the wonderful improvements to the standard Chaos Space Marine, at the low Icon costs, it's really hard to mathematically justify using cults. Which sucks because I have a great deal of Cult models. But that has always been the problem with Chaos.
 
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The other Kind of Fluff
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Khorne. It always irritated me that units like Blood Fangs from the Space Wolves got a berserkers charge, and Khorne BERSERKERS did not. Now they have furios charge; they should have had that to begin with. I like the Weapon skill upgrade, but it's negligable. Still as tough as before and can still put out a decent amount of attacks. I REALLY REALLY miss blood frenzy. The point was to get these guys into H2H and that was a great way to do it. It was the closest thing to fleet that we had.
How is a 5WS negligible? Against MEQ's berzerkers now hit on a 3+. That's incredible, especially when combined with furious charge.

Blood Frenzy: Don't worry, with 5th edition, they'll effectively have fleet, so long as they don't charge or shoot. This more than makes up for the loss of Blood Frenzy, which is unpredictable and worse, uncontrollable. I think you'll find that the overall movement of berzerkers will increase ;Y

If we end up getting Cult specific codices, and by the looks of things we will, then perhaps there will be a price reduction in cult marine prices for their respective armies. However, more likely, we'll just see cult marine mechanics placed onto other units besides basic marines- i.e., plague termis, t.s. chosen, etc...
 

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How is a 5WS negligible? Against MEQ's berzerkers now hit on a 3+. That's incredible, especially when combined with furious charge.
Maybe it's because I rarely get to fight much that doesn't either outlast (Orcs) or outclass (Harlequins) them. It's been a while since I've seen them do much, even with 5Ws. Can't remember for the life of me the last time I got the charge off either...
Blood Frenzy: Don't worry, with 5th edition, they'll effectively have fleet, so long as they don't charge or shoot. This more than makes up for the loss of Blood Frenzy, which is unpredictable and worse, uncontrollable. I think you'll find that the overall movement of berzerkers will increase ;Y
It's not effective for Berserkers unless they can charge. The problem with Berserkers is they're among the slowest Assault troops in the game; no fleet, no bikes, no wings, no jump packs, etc. It's probably just me, but the "run" rule in 5th means I will be making it easier for my troops to get charged by the enemy. I've ran a few scenarios, and they usually turn out very badly for the boys in blood.
If we end up getting Cult specific codices, and by the looks of things we will, then perhaps there will be a price reduction in cult marine prices for their respective armies. However, more likely, we'll just see cult marine mechanics placed onto other units besides basic marines- i.e., plague termis, t.s. chosen, etc...
I remember my old Thousand son terminators... hmm... multi-wound Terminies... those were the days. So far in every Chaos Codex update we've been getting price breaks. We're almost there, but we need at least one more slash. (At least you can say that's been going for us)

It seems more reasonable to purchase Icons of Khorne for other troops; Raptors and Bikes, then buying a squad of Berserkers. To paraphrase...

GW Employee: Good news guys! Berserkers are getting upgraded!
Players: Hurra! What cool stuff can we expect?
GW: Well, first, we've taken away blood frenzy!
Players: So now they have no boost to movement whatsoever?
GW: Yes! And then we're giving them furious charge!
Players: You mean that thing they should have had from the start?
GW: And then we're giving you guys an extra WS!
Players: Is that it?
GW: Don't forget you're also fearless! And have free gernades now!
Players: So you've brought us up to par?
GW: No! You're shooting above par, you're great!
Players: Hey wait a minute... what about our axes?
GW: Axes? What axes? You never had any axes! You're great!
Players: So you took some stuff away and gave us what we should hav already had? WTF!
GW: Like tigers you are... you're great!
Players: ARe you even listening??!!
GW: Rawr! Grr!
 
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The other Kind of Fluff
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Revelations, against those opponents, you're right, an increased WS does little.

Blood Frenzy aside, I'm inclined towards agreeing that 5th edition 'run' won't be of much use for our beloved zerkers, however, for a slightly different reason than you stated. Berzkerkers virtually always require a rhino for advanced movement, in which case, they charge directly out of the transport, or disembark, and then charge the following round. Neither scenario allows for 'run.'
 

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Chilli Fueled Heretic
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I have mixed feelings about this...

Khorne. It always irritated me that units like Blood Fangs from the Space Wolves got a berserkers charge, and Khorne BERSERKERS did not. Now they have furios charge; they should have had that to begin with. I like the Weapon skill upgrade, but it's negligable. Still as tough as before and can still put out a decent amount of attacks. I REALLY REALLY miss blood frenzy. The point was to get these guys into H2H and that was a great way to do it. It was the closest thing to fleet that we had.

Won some, lost some. Should have kept the Frenzy.

A lot of people moaned that the frenzy was the most stupid thing around. Chasing landspeeders into open ground to get shot apart

Nurgle. Feel no Pain with high toughness roxxors my soxxors. These are the best attrition troops in the game IMO. There weapon selection however, is absolute crap for that goal. They have no heavy weapon choices, which doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I won't argue that meltas aren't great, but would have liked to see them with some better range weapons. Blight gernades are still nice for H2H.

Won most, lost nothing. Should have provided heavy weapon choices.

Heavy weapons are a no no, if you read the fluff death guard cant take heavy weapons and in the old codex they couldnt either. Plasma guns are the best thing anyway!

Tzeentch. They traded their extra wound for 4+ invulnerable saves... not a bad trade off all things considered. I remember when you needed S5 or more to hurt them at all. These guys just keep changing in really odd ways. Sorceres seriously got hurt with having to make psychic tests now; that was their greatest asset when fighting other armies, especially anti-psyker.

Won some, lost some. Should have something extra for Sorcerers.

Sorcerers got Force weapons, which is a massive boost. Now your hidden champion can smite down the enemy independant character behind is screen of 4++ warriors.

Slaneesh. Why do I have to pay even more for their standard weaponry when they're already more expensive than normal troops? Still a good shooty squad, but not at that price. Just a wierd combination with the high initiative, probably should have had more H2H items than not. I still can't justify taking a single squad of these guys, but I'll use their icon on other squads.

Won nothing, lost most. Should be much cheaper with more H2H options.

What did they loose?I really cant see anything these guys have lost. The cost of doom siren and blastmaster has increased because there stats have got better. Sonic blasters are the same points cost. The normal factory line noise marine is 1 point more due to the fact it now has ultra grit and grenades. They havent gained much, but they sure havent lost anything.

As far as "general" feelings, I find it pretty tough to use cult troops to great extents with their point costs. 1-2 small squads at most. With the wonderful improvements to the standard Chaos Space Marine, at the low Icon costs, it's really hard to mathematically justify using cults. Which sucks because I have a great deal of Cult models. But that has always been the problem with Chaos.
Sorry about picking apart your post.

Dan

*Edit*
Just to add, Warp scream got better for noise marines too, no its +1I not -1I to the enemy if they choose to attack you. This means in multiple combats noise marines Higher I could be negated by attacking a different unit.
 

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Danjones; no sweat on picking apart my post, this is a discussion forum after all. I would only ask that you don’t respond in the quotes, cause it makes it tough for me to quote you without going through the hassle of extra work. So I’ll just touch on the points you raised.

The reason I liked frenzy was that it gave them a little boost every now and then. It certainly wasn’t as unpredictable as everyone made it out to be; hence why people wouldn’t be able to manipulate it the way you are saying. Anyone putting a landspeeder at risk to open berserkers like that would be benefitting the berserkers more, since when they didn’t frenzy one turn, they’ve already had movement boosts to get closer to the rest of the army. If not having already shot the speeder down (assuming Plasma pistols).

The bait tactic they are using builds their tactics around getting them into open ground. While you have 2 units (speeder and heavy support) attempting to deal with one squad of berserkers, what’s the rest of your army doing? I would love to have those kinds of odds.

I don’t like plasma guns when there are better options out there. Something about instantly killing off one of my own troops because he wants to use a plasma weapon over a missile launcher is beyond me. Just because the codex doesn’t list options for heavy weapons doesn’t explain to me why they shouldn’t have them. These guys are great and staying in one place and never letting the enemy take their position; they could do so even better with heavy weapon choices. Their current weapon choices rely on them being mobile, something Nurgle has never been good at.

Again I won’t argue against Force Weapons, they are nice. BUT, I can only use the Force Weapon if I haven’t used my powers, and they are still required to test, against anything the enemies throw at them. With the loss of auto-passes and all their psyker gear; the Force Weapon is a band-aid on a broken bone. Once again, they gave a melee weapon to a shooty squad. Why?

It’s kind of tough to talk about Slaneesh without getting into the pts values honestly. Since we can’t do that we’ll have to paraphrase a bit. From the start, you’re paying more for them than you are a normal marine. For what exactly? Fearless and 1 more initiative? Is it worth AX amount of more points? Then, you have to pay an additional BX amount of points for their guns which they SHOULD HAVE already had in the first place. They might be worth it if you got everything in one package deal with the cost of AX, but certainly not BX.

I think that might be why the standard Chaos cult choices irritate me so much; they try to be good at a little bit of everything and don’t really hit the mark that well. Shooty squads with high Int, medium range squads with high T, H2H troops with low movement, more shooty squads with cool H2H weapons. It just doesn’t make a lot of sense to me sometimes. Maybe that’s because their Chaos though…

I could justify the following for each squad at no additional pts per model without being broken (based both on points and fluff no less)…

Berserkers; 1 power weapon for every 7 troops. IE: if you have a squad of 8 berserkers, you may have a second power weapon option. OR; changing their WS5 to giving them the favored enemy skill. OR; allowing them to Blood Rage per the players choice on a 4+ or something.

Plague Marines; 1 heavy weapon option at 10 marines.

Slannesh; free basic guns at their current costs. Certainly pay more for their bigger guns though.

Tzeentch; Sorcerer wargear; a talisman that gave an option to reroll failed checks OR to negate enemy anti-psyker gear on a roll of 4+ or something. OR; allow the squad to negate psychic attacks on a 4+ or something.

Here's the thing; I'm paying more for specific tasked squads that don't have what they need to do said specific tasks. The thing that makes them reasonable currently is that they take up troop choices instead of alternate force choices; that certainly rocks.
 
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The other Kind of Fluff
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The reason I liked frenzy was that it gave them a little boost every now and then. It certainly wasn’t as unpredictable as everyone made it out to be; hence why people wouldn’t be able to manipulate it the way you are saying. Anyone putting a landspeeder at risk to open berserkers like that would be benefitting the berserkers more, since when they didn’t frenzy one turn, they’ve already had movement boosts to get closer to the rest of the army. If not having already shot the speeder down (assuming Plasma pistols).

The bait tactic they are using builds their tactics around getting them into open ground. While you have 2 units (speeder and heavy support) attempting to deal with one squad of berserkers, what’s the rest of your army doing? I would love to have those kinds of odds.


There's still the problem of movement. If it's not predictable, and only gives the berzerkers a boost every now and again, then it's not a reliable means of added movement. In 3rd edition, this problem was often solved by the inclusion of the Talisman of the Burning Blood, which doubled the chance of Blood Frenzy, but also doubled the chance of losing control of the unit to a pesky enemy land speeder. Of course, as you said the land speeder scenario was somewhat rare in most gaming circles, but in my experience, when this actually did transpire, the battle was lost, bar none.

Also, in 3rd edition, it wasn't a large investment for a space marine player to devote both a devastator squad and a landspeeder towards a single berzerker squad, especially considering that even without the 'puppet' effect, both dev's and the landspeeder are well-suited for killing MEQ's. The control factor was just a bonus.


I don’t like plasma guns when there are better options out there. Something about instantly killing off one of my own troops because he wants to use a plasma weapon over a missile launcher is beyond me. Just because the codex doesn’t list options for heavy weapons doesn’t explain to me why they shouldn’t have them. These guys are great and staying in one place and never letting the enemy take their position; they could do so even better with heavy weapon choices. Their current weapon choices rely on them being mobile, something Nurgle has never been good at.


The 'gets hot' mechanic also applies to plasma pistols. I'm wondering, just curious really, why you would equip them on your Berzerkers, and yet, not on Plague Marines.


Again I won’t argue against Force Weapons, they are nice. BUT, I can only use the Force Weapon if I haven’t used my powers, and they are still required to test, against anything the enemies throw at them. With the loss of auto-passes and all their psyker gear; the Force Weapon is a band-aid on a broken bone. Once again, they gave a melee weapon to a shooty squad. Why?

The force weapon presents more of a fluffy option, I believe, than our 3rd edition power fists squads. On that note, most players included fists in third edition T.S. squad, so having the force weapon, while not synergistic with the inferno bolts, doesn't seem *that* contradictory. As well, most T.S. units inevitably find themselves smack dab in the middle of c.c., due to their slow movement, but also because they are incredibly brutal againt marines within rapid fire distance. Having a nifty power fist or force weapon seems like a decent fit.


It’s kind of tough to talk about Slaneesh without getting into the pts values honestly. Since we can’t do that we’ll have to paraphrase a bit. From the start, you’re paying more for them than you are a normal marine. For what exactly? Fearless and 1 more initiative? Is it worth AX amount of more points? Then, you have to pay an additional BX amount of points for their guns which they SHOULD HAVE already had in the first place. They might be worth it if you got everything in one package deal with the cost of AX, but certainly not BX.


I have the same negative gut reaction to Sonic squads. However, in small units they really are effective in all manner of ranged management. I used to preface this statement with, "despite being geared with a superior initiative"; and this is true to a certain extent. Nevertheless, marines function as renaissance troops, and so we must expect them, even when designed for range to have some level of flexibility (zerkers excluded). Given the above, sonic squads are more than capable in c.c. as well, especially against swarms, when they charge in with assault two weaponry and then strike with three attacks at a superior initiative. That's five attacks on the charge per model, which isn't bad against marines either.

Revelation, I'm not disputing your irritation for mixed mechanics that don't adhere to a similar role, but only that we're essentially an all-purpose army, outfitted with a handsome save and adaptability. If you want complete specialization, then try your hand at Orcs or I.G. ;)


I think that might be why the standard Chaos cult choices irritate me so much; they try to be good at a little bit of everything and don’t really hit the mark that well. Shooty squads with high Int, medium range squads with high T, H2H troops with low movement, more shooty squads with cool H2H weapons. It just doesn’t make a lot of sense to me sometimes. Maybe that’s because their Chaos though…

That's marines for you. Rhinos solve the issue of movement, as well as offer protection while en route, particularly with the 5th edition rules for transports.
 

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Festo Diata
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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Revelations said:
The reason I liked frenzy was that it gave them a little boost every now and then. It certainly wasn’t as unpredictable as everyone made it out to be; hence why people wouldn’t be able to manipulate it the way you are saying. Anyone putting a landspeeder at risk to open berserkers like that would be benefitting the berserkers more, since when they didn’t frenzy one turn, they’ve already had movement boosts to get closer to the rest of the army. If not having already shot the speeder down (assuming Plasma pistols).
Using the rules from the 3rd edition of Chaos Space Marines, if your Beserkers were subject to Blood Frenzy, they would be unable to fire their Plasma Pistols. Indeed, such was the cost of the Plasma Pistol I never even considered it an option, due to the fact I may not be able to fire it.

As far as the mobility of Khorne Beserkers is concerned, I find it hard to believe that an occasional extra d6" of movement could have possibly affected your battle plans.. I use my Beserkers in a Rhino, and they perform fantastically. The Rhino could be the best upgrade you buy for your squad, in my opinion. Revelations, you stated you have a difficult time getting the charge using your Beserkers on foot.. perhaps that has something to do with getting models into close combat at all. Beserkers are, in fact, just as fast as a normal Space Marine now. Do you have trouble getting other Space Marines into combat? I would suggest using a Rhino as cover for your advance, as well as the added speed. Failing that, you could always resort to using the Lash of Submission. That tactic is virtually (other than Psychic Hoods) foolproof.

I'd like to point out at this juncture that Khorne Beserkers statistically kill much more than they ever did before, due mostly to their increased Weapon Skill. This is true even without, but especially if, applying the effects of Furious Charge. So from the perspective of the Blood God, I suppose they are much better.

I certainly agree with the Blood God. :D
 

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Rabbit: I'll take the occassional Plasma on Berserkers because they have no other choice. I won't do it for Plaguers cause they can choose meltas. To answer that question at least.

TwoHats: The mobility of berserkers by themselves is always a problem; even when equipped with a transport. There is only one Assault vehicle in our lists; and it's a pricey cost. The problem with them is not getting them into combat, but rather getting them the charge. This is where the mobility of other armies assault troops benefits them over our berserkers.

I never actually plan my battles around random occurances; they were just a god send when it actually happened though. (Kind of like planning on a Dread to never frenzy)

I will detail my 3 fold issue with Berserkers...

1. Mobility. Once again, they are the slowest Assault troops in the game (while it's true there share this with other assault units, it doesn't negate the point). They rely on outside transportation to gaurantee Charges (under certain risks; vehicle destroyed - entangled, access hatches blocked). They also do not gain other nifty mobile rules; jump packs, ignore difficult terrain, etc.

2. Only the Champion has special attacks. No rending, a single power weapon, no poison attacks, etc.

3. No "niche". What exactly do Berserkers have that other assault troops do not? What do Berserkers do better than other assault troops? Etc.

But throw that on top of other things GW has done to them and our other assault troops...

1. Berserkers no longer have Chain Axes.

2. Raptors no longer have Hit and Run.

3. We lost EVERY SINGLE DEAMON. Now they get their own independant Codex.

4. Spawns are slow and purposeful with no armor save.

It's not just that they screwed with my Berserkers; they screwed with every other Assault oriented unit Chaos had. So now I'm stuck with justifing spending points on what sub-par assault unit I want to take. Low mobility? Less attacks? Huge point sink? Oh joy! I just can't decide!

Ok, /end rant. Must avoid getting off topic... So you can see how my cult selections haven't improved in the way they should; especially when you apply them to how the remaining Chaos selections have also changed.

And the lash thing... I'll buy dinner for the next person that doesn't have anti-psyker gear in there army the next time I face them. Seriously, 4 games so far and not one successful power used. /snap
 

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I'm going to disagree with some of your above points, while I do agree with others.

No "niche". What exactly do Berserkers have that other assault troops do not? What do Berserkers do better than other assault troops? Etc.
What do Berserkers do better than other assault troops? They hit MEQs on a 3+; on the charge they wound MEQs on a 3+ and strike before the enemy. That's petty mean if you ask me. Also, think about this: in the old days Berserkers had Ork cc abilities (i.e. the choppa... I mean chain ax), now they STILL have Ork cc abilities. Orks lost the choppa, and gained furious charge - guess what, so did Berserkers! The only thing they don't have that Orks do is Waaagh!, and that makes sense. The mobility thing is purpose-built into the equation - if they could move 12" everybody would take them because they'd totally own in every way. 5th Ed. promises to be better for them, with better transport rules and the whole run thing.

And if you want "niche" troops, play Eldar. We may be Chaos, but we're also Space Marines, which means that you're just not going to get a squad of I5, power-weapon-wielding, fleet-of-footing Berserkers.

Raptors no longer have Hit and Run.
True, but they are 5 pts cheaper than loyalist assault marines, and still retain their ability to use special weapons. Plus, you can give them marks! That is a great advantage for not very many points per model, depending on how many Raptors you take in a squad. If you have 10, then for effectively +3 pts/model they get an additional attack, and for even less you can give them a higher initiative w/ the MoS. Yeah, Hit and Run was great, but now Raptors are cheaper and I think that, with the ability to get marked, balances out.

We lost EVERY SINGLE DEAMON. Now they get their own independant Codex.
I thought that we could mix the codexes together and use the new Demons w/ our existing Chaos armies. Maybe I missed a memo or something; I'm not really up on my rumor gouge. And to be fair, the Greater Demon is sick for the points cost.

Spawns are slow and purposeful with no armor save.
I totally agree that Spawn are a stinky choice in the new 'dex. Statistically speaking, it takes only 13.5 bolter shots to kill a spawn, while it takes 27 to kill a Plague Marine. Granted, it takes 3 times as many lascannons to kill a Spawn than a Plague Marine, but Spawn are still overcosted for what they do.

And for the record, I think that Plague Marines are the best cult troop in the new codex, with Thousand Sons a close second.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
1. Mobility. Once again, they are the slowest Assault troops in the game (while it's true there share this with other assault units, it doesn't negate the point). They rely on outside transportation to gaurantee Charges (under certain risks; vehicle destroyed - entangled, access hatches blocked). They also do not gain other nifty mobile rules; jump packs, ignore difficult terrain, etc.
Again, I encourage you to try to rediscover the Chaos Rhino. If you start your Beserkers inside a Rhino, behind some cover, than move 12" and disembark behind the Rhino, I think you'll find it makes handy cover and puts you pretty close to the enemy. At least close enough to launch a counter-assault, should they try to advance on you. You'd be surprised the versatility of a unit mounted in a Rhino. As an aside, Beserkers never had jump packs or could ignore terrain effects.

2. Only the Champion has special attacks. No rending, a single power weapon, no poison attacks, etc.
They are Space Marines with higher Weapon Skill, Furious Charge, and an extra attack.

3. No "niche". What exactly do Berserkers have that other assault troops do not? What do Berserkers do better than other assault troops? Etc.
My high opinion of Khorne Beserkers in the new codex is that their "niche" is breaking the back of an enemy combat squad. Such targets include: anything with Initiative 4.

I'm curious if you have ever used a Khorne Beserker squad in a game where you got the charge with them, because it puzzles me how you haven't been wowed by this unit. I'm actually glad to say Games Workshop did something amazing with an otherwise totally haphazard Elites choice for most Chaos armies. Some days I just stare at the Chaos Raptor entry and wonder why God has forsaken me..

However, when I read the Khorne Beserker entry.. everything is cool in my world.

P.S. Sorry to hear about your situation with Lash of Submission, it is a really tactile power.. maybe if you stop using it for a while, your buddies will forget their Psychic Hoods and then you can get away with it in a big tournament. ;)
 

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Craftman2; the first point oh how they hit MEQ’s is kinda meh considering several other assault units do the same. I’m not arguing against the wonderful thing Furious charge is, just that it sucks with low mobility (sort of like making a H2H unit be slow and purposeful… wtf?).

Granted point on the “everyone would take them” idea. That’s kind of the problem I see with other assault troops… why wouldn’t you take them? Take the nasty Eldar Harlys for example; no reason whatsoever never to take them. Shouldn’t we have some sort of clear cut assault unit? Don’t get me wrong I love diversity, but only when it’s in the positive. Asking me what color I want my crap cake to be doesn’t motivate me to make a decision. ;)

I also know were supposed to be SM’s. Which actually irritates me a lot that they streamlined our chaosness and stole our demons… /snarl. But if you think about it, why be normal Space Marines with a few fluffish rules? Don’t really want to play SM’s.

I do still like Raptors, but I do miss H+R, never understood why they took that from us. With the IoK, they’re almost Berserkers with wings… almost.

As far as any information available says so far; we got shafted because Demons are getting their own, incompatible codex. I’m really hoping against hope this is wrong, because we needed some love in that regard. Love the Cheapness of the demons now; but very-very lackluster.

Twohats; I know they never had the aforementioned mobility rules, just making that point. But yah, I need to screw around with Rhino’s again.

The last time I got a charge off, I had to use 2 squads teamed together, so one suffered the charge so the other could capitalize on the counter charge. I probably would have been more impressed if my Orc opponent hadn’t rolled about 4x as many dice on his charge. I’m still waiting for my “wow” moment I guess. Sort of like if someone buys you a Ford after your buddy just rolled up in his Porsche.

I’m right there with you on the Raptors… until I realized they are nuttly cheaper than the previous codex.
On the Lash thing… I’ve never used it. I guess my opponents don’t like ANY powers. (Possibly due to me gibbing many a cool enemy with Spawn, but hey!)
 

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As far as any information available says so far; we got shafted because Demons are getting their own, incompatible codex. I’m really hoping against hope this is wrong, because we needed some love in that regard. Love the Cheapness of the demons now; but very-very lackluster.
That's heartbreaking. I was looking forward to incorporating specific demons into my army. I used to run with a Bloodthirster and 20 Bloodletters, and they cleaned house on a regular basis.

On a little off-topic bit, I don't think Harlies are a mando assault unit for the Eldar. In my opinion they can get far too expensive for their fragility. When I play my Eldar (if I use assault units at all), I go for Banshees because MEQs is the most common foe, though I really love Scorpions because of their higher strength and save, and their ability to infiltrate.

Back on topic: I've been consistently frustrated with the inability to assault from a transport. It takes some creative tactics, like the ones TwoHats described, to make them effective, but I think they can still be really nasty. Running a Rhino out of cover and popping smoke will make it tough to kill, and the next turn you can be right in the enemy's face. Also, this need to spend a turn NOT assaulting makes plasma pistols a more viable option (I still don't take them, though; I don't like paying the points for a potentially 1-use pistol weapon).

I think that more than any other army, CSM really benefit from transports: almost every squad is better with some added protection and mobility that comes from the Rhino. I think for Berserkers it's an almost mandatory option, though when 5th Ed. comes out it may not be.
 

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My limited understanding of 5ed leads me to question the true value of the new Run rule for Berzerkers. Sure, it's like having a reliable Frenzy+ToBB that can't be abused with a Land Speeder, but every non-jump infantry will also have it, won't they? So Berzerkers having that extra speed won't necessarily mean much relative to other assault units; it makes all assault units better. Jumpers will still be faster, and Rhinos will still give you that guaranteed Cruising Speed move (even more on roads) and mobile cover.

Plus, Zerkers will be even better off in transports in 5ed because of the removal of the Entangled result of emergency disembarkation. Moreover, vehicles can't be annihilated anymore, so there's no risk of losing all the passengers with no save. It's okay to post this stuff, right?

Granted, I'd love to be able to footslog my Zerkers! I just don't see how the Rhinos wouldn't be worth their cheap cost.
 
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