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LO Zealot
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1,883 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Cypher of the Fallen Cost: 175 pts

Cypher counts as an HQ choice for a Chaos Space Marine army.

WS BS S T W I A LD SV
6 6 4 4 3 5 3 10 3+

Wargear:
-Power armour
-Master-Crafter Bolt Pistol
-Master Crafter Plasma Pistol
-C’Tan Phase Knife
-Frag Grenades
-Krak Grenades
-The Nameless Blade

Special Rules:
-Fearless
-Independent Character
-5+ Invulnerable Save

-Master Gun Fighter: Over the millennia Cypher has mastered the art of gun fighting, he wields his pistols almost as an extension of his own body. As such Cypher may always choose to fire both of his pistols in every shooting phase and treats them as Assault 2 weapons.
-The Dark Herald: If Cypher is taken in a CSM army one unit of chosen or normal chaos marines may be upgraded to Fallen at +2 pts per model, If a unit is upgraded in this way they automatically become Cypher’s retinue. Fallen are fearless and have the Preferred enemy: Dark Angels Universal Special Rule. If a unit of Chosen is upgraded to Fallen then Cypher may infiltrate with them at a cost of 15pts.
-Enigmatic Protection: Should Cypher be reduced to 0 wounds remove him from the board as normal and roll a D6. On a roll of 4+ the opposing player is not awarded any victory points for killing Cypher, this is to represent him being whisked away at the last second by a mysterious power.

-C’Tan Phase Knife: The C’Tan Phase Knife functions as a normal power weapon with the added benefit of allowing Cypher to ignore Invulnerable saves of 5+ or less.
-The Nameless Blade: Cypher carries with him a sword that none living have ever seen him draw from its scabbard. Some whisper that this is the fabled sword of the Primarch Lion El’Johnson while others are sure that it is no more than a weapon infused with the bound essence of a daemon that Cypher has yet to master. The Nameless Blade counts as a personal icon and once per game will allow the owning player to re roll a single dice when checking if reserves have become available.


Let me know any thoughts please!
 

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Senior Member
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426 Posts
I like it, very clever and quite balanced. Just wondering, did you mean assault 2 for each gun or assault 2 in total? basically... 4 shots or 2?

Other than that little errata, very well done.
 

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The other Kind of Fluff
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8,843 Posts
Ironangel, if anything he's slightly under powered, though not by much. I only say this because his attacks are so low, and there's no way of getting around this, unlike other low-attack value special characters, like Huron. However, he's an incredible toolbox.
 

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LO Zealot
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1,883 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Thanks for all of the replies guys!

I like it, very clever and quite balanced. Just wondering, did you mean assault 2 for each gun or assault 2 in total? basically... 4 shots or 2?

Other than that little errata, very well done.
I meant for each pistol to become assualt 2 so in effect he would have 2 master crafted bolt pistol shots and 2 master crafted plasma pistol shots.

A shame your not on LO as much as you ueed to!
Fear not friends! My new laptop is on the way and once it gets here expect to be seeing a lot more of me!

Id like to say that you should change the Ctan phase knife to be ignores all saves OR reduces all inv saves by 2, so 3++ becomes 5++.
The reasoning behind the phase knife just plain ignoring 5++ and 6++ saves is that a C'Tan has a 4++ and due to the fact that C'tan based swords / knives are not supposed to work against C'Tan I thought it was fitting.

I also thin cypher should have to join a fallen unit too, i dont see him travelling the galaxy without his cronies.
I tis also extremely fluffy for fallen to travel alone as any group that stays together for any period of time is invariably hunted down by the dark angels.

Ironangel, if anything he's slightly under powered, though not by much. I only say this because his attacks are so low, and there's no way of getting around this, unlike other low-attack value special characters, like Huron. However, he's an incredible toolbox.
He is underpowered at the moment but will get better with 5th due to the addition of run, re rolls from WS6+ and the new favoured enemy rule.

Thanks for the input and keep it coming!
 

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119 Posts
I don't see many changes from when he existed in the Chaos Codex. If you're goal was to update him for 4-5th edition, why did you downgrade the C'tan knife ability? Everything else looks slightly better within the new rules set.

I'm also curious why you decided to go with Reserves roll for the Blade, what was the reasoning?

What happened to his Animosity rule? I thought that was kind of clever and goes along with the fluff, because you were never sure what side he was fighting for (remember he could be used with Imperial Gaurd too). Any chance of putting that in?
 

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LO Zealot
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1,883 Posts
Discussion Starter · #9 ·
I don't see many changes from when he existed in the Chaos Codex. If you're goal was to update him for 4-5th edition, why did you downgrade the C'tan knife ability? Everything else looks slightly better within the new rules set.
As I said above I did so based on some recent fluff reasons but as he is unlikely to ever wound a C'Tan in CC anyways I will just change it to what it used to be.

I'm also curious why you decided to go with Reserves roll for the Blade, what was the reasoning?
Think super personal icon...

What happened to his Animosity rule? I thought that was kind of clever and goes along with the fluff, because you were never sure what side he was fighting for (remember he could be used with Imperial Gaurd too). Any chance of putting that in?
I forgot about this... I will work something up tomorrow and post the updated rules.
 

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Woof! Woof! Bark! Bark!!!
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913 Posts
I've thought a ton about Cypher since I love the miniature so very much.

I think the profile you have come up with is very good. The only thing I would suggest concerns the old gunslinger (gunfighter?) special rule - when combined with the master-crafting I think he shuld not have to suffer the 'gets hot!' special rule.

Plus let him have some Fallen. Let's me use my squad better...




Cypher and the beakie with the flamer are still slightly PIP in this photo. They are too white, since they haven't gotten their final coat. But you get the idea.





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ISIS Secret Agent Squishy
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1,875 Posts
You don't need to do anything "special" for the C'Tan Phase Knife.

Using the current rule for the Callidus Assassin's C'Tan Phase Sword (no saves - including Invulnerable) is perfectly fine, because the C'Tan's Necrodermis Rule states that it cannot be harmed by a Phase Sword/Knife, instead absorbing the sword and disarming attacker.
 

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LO Zealot
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1,883 Posts
Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Thanks for the input guys!

I think the profile you have come up with is very good. The only thing I would suggest concerns the old gunslinger (gunfighter?) special rule - when combined with the master-crafting I think he shuld not have to suffer the 'gets hot!' special rule.
I had considered this too but to be honest with the master crafting and the re roll from having higher than BS 5 with the 5th edition rules he will ver very rarely overheat anyways.

Plus let him have some Fallen. Let's me use my squad better...
If you take a closer look above you will see that I did give him the option to take a squad of fallen.

Cypher and the beakie with the flamer are still slightly PIP in this photo. They are too white, since they haven't gotten their final coat. But you get the idea.
Wow, those are nice :D

You don't need to do anything "special" for the C'Tan Phase Knife.

Using the current rule for the Callidus Assassin's C'Tan Phase Sword (no saves - including Invulnerable) is perfectly fine, because the C'Tan's Necrodermis Rule states that it cannot be harmed by a Phase Sword/Knife, instead absorbing the sword and disarming attacker.
aha, thanks scott, I had forgotten that!

Just thought I would mention that fluff-wise, Cypher lost his C'tan blade. I wish I remember exactly where.
hhhmmm... well considering that Eldrad is dead and still has rules I think Cypher will keep his blade. ;)

I was thinking of adding the following rule:

A Dark Purpose: There is likely not a being in the galaxy that truly knows what Cypher is planning and why. Often he will join a battle helping one side achieve the upper hand only to turn on them at the last moment. To represent this roll a D6 at the beginning of every turn, if a 1 is rolled your opponent may control Cypher's actions for the rest of that turn.

With the addition of this rule I would likely reduce his cost by 15-20 pts.
 

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Just thought I would mention that fluff-wise, Cypher lost his C'tan blade. I wish I remember exactly where.
Cypher lost the knife while fighting while fighting one of the C'tan; I believe the bit of stuff on that mentions the C'tan having golden skin so he most likely lost it to the Deceiver.
 

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LO Zealot
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1,883 Posts
Discussion Starter · #15 ·
UPDATED RULES!

Here are the new rules, let me know any thoughts and suggestions...

Cypher of the Fallen Cost: 170 pts

Cypher counts as an HQ choice for a Chaos Space Marine army in addition Cypher and a unit of normal chaos marines upgraded to Fallen may be taken as an elites choice by the imperial guard. Should the Imperial Guard choose to field Cypher they may not ally with any units from the Dark Angels, Daemon Hunters or Witch Hunters Codexes.

WS BS S T W I A LD SV
6 6 4 4 3 5 3 10 3+

Wargear:
-Power armour
-Master-Crafter Bolt Pistol
-Master Crafter Plasma Pistol
-C’Tan Phase Knife
-Frag Grenades
-Krak Grenades
-The Nameless Blade

Special Rules:
-Fearless
-Independent Character
-5+ Invulnerable Save

-Master Gun Fighter: Over the millennia Cypher has mastered the art of gun fighting, he wields his pistols almost as an extension of his own body. As such Cypher may always choose to fire both of his pistols in every shooting phase and treats each pistol as an Assault 2 weapon.

-The Herald of Woe: Whenever word of Cypher’s movements reaches the ears of the fallen these dark brethren are quick to gather and accompany him into battle, believing that no matter Cypher’s purpose he must be protected at all costs. If Cypher is taken in a CSM army one unit of chosen or normal chaos marines may be upgraded to Fallen at +2 pts per model, if a unit is upgraded in this way they may not take an icon and automatically become Cypher’s retinue. Fallen are fearless and have the Preferred enemy: Dark Angels Universal Special Rule. In addition any Dark Angels units will become fearless when fighting in close combat with a unit of the fallen and double victory points are to be awarded for destroying the unit. If a unit of Chosen is upgraded to Fallen then Cypher may infiltrate with them at an additional cost of 15pts.

-Enigmatic Protection: Through the course of the years Cypher has encountered many a situation that should have seen him captured, killed or worse at the hands of the imperium yet some unknown force has chosen to favor Cypher and snatches him from the jaws of defeat. Should Cypher be reduced to 0 wounds remove him from the board as normal and roll a D6. On a roll of 4+ the opposing player is not awarded any victory points for killing Cypher, this is to represent him being whisked away at the last second by his mysterious guardian power.

-A Dark Purpose: There is likely not a being in the galaxy, aside from Cypher himself, that knows the reasoning behind his actions. Cypher has often been known to join a battle and help one force gain the upper hand only to then turn on that force at a crucial moment. To represent this during the movement phase roll a D6, if the result is a 1 Cypher will move towards, shoot and if possible assault the nearest unit (not including the fallen), friend or foe. If Cypher is with a unit of the fallen when this happens he will leave the unit to pursue his own ends but may rejoin them later.

-C’Tan Phase Knife: Among the many ancient and mysterious artifacts that Cypher has acquired through the millennia is the C’Tan Phase Knife. The blade of this long dagger has the ability to phase itself in and out of known reality, bypassing any type of protection in the galaxy save that of the C’Tan themselves. The C’Tan Phase Knife functions as a normal power weapon with the added benefit of ignoring Invulnerable saves.

-The Nameless Blade: Cypher has in his posession a sword that none living have ever seen him wield, often times it is carried into battle by a mysterious cloaked creature that never leaves his side. Some whisper that this is the fabled sword of the Primarch Lion El’Johnson while others are sure that it is no more than a weapon infused with the bound essence of a daemon that Cypher has yet to master. No matter the origins of the blade wherever Cypher carries it chaos invariably follows, be it daemons from the warp or the marines of the traitorous legions themselves. The Nameless Blade counts as a personal icon and as long as Cypher is on the board will allow the owning player to add +1 to all reserves rolls.
 

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I like the idea of the Dark Purpose, brings back the glory days of animosity. But I think it might get a little complicated, especially if he is already attached to a Fallen squad. He would basically leave them, shoot them, then charge then since their the closest. I thought your original idea might be fun, where the opponent get's to control him, but then they might do the same thing.

Probably needs a little reworking, but a nice start.
 

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Chilli Fueled Heretic
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5,839 Posts
-A Dark Purpose: There is likely not a being in the galaxy, aside from Cypher himself, that knows the reasoning behind his actions. Cypher has often been known to join a battle and help one force gain the upper hand only to then turn on that force at a crucial moment. To represent this during the movement phase roll a D6, if the result is a 1 Cypher will move towards, shoot and if possible assault the nearest unit (not including the fallen), friend or foe. If Cypher is with a unit of the fallen when this happens he will leave the unit to pursue his own ends but may rejoin them later.
I like the idea of the Dark Purpose, brings back the glory days of animosity. But I think it might get a little complicated, especially if he is already attached to a Fallen squad. He would basically leave them, shoot them, then charge then since their the closest. I thought your original idea might be fun, where the opponent get's to control him, but then they might do the same thing.

Probably needs a little reworking, but a nice start.
Not so Revelations.

Id like to say, reduce the points cost further and then make the fallen follow cyphers lead and shoot up some of there friends!

Dan
 

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LO Zealot
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1,883 Posts
Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Id like to say, reduce the points cost further and then make the fallen follow cyphers lead and shoot up some of there friends!
I had considered it but really thought it was too big of a drawback especially when the player could have a normal unit of marines or chosen instead for less points and those marines would not turn on his own forces.

Anyone up to the challenge of helping to play test this bugger? Any other comments / suggestions?

Thanks!
 

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Woof! Woof! Bark! Bark!!!
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913 Posts
Anyone up to the challenge of helping to play test this bugger? Any other comments / suggestions?
I will happily field him in the next game I play, opponent willing. Beats using him as a normal marine, which is what I have been doing when my squad of Fallen get to play...



.
 

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Registered
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If by help you playtest him you mean play you in a game where your using or playing him then I'd be more than happy to help out with that. (On VASSAL that is.) I'd even be willing to sully my own marine honour and play as dark angels to boot.
 
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