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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I would like to buy either the new daemon prince model or get the bloodthirster. I like both models about the same so it comes down to how they do on the table. I did up a list for the daemon prince and jacked him up pretty good about the same points cost as the bloodthirster. Now most of my experiance with greater daemons comes from fighting against them in 2nd edition rules and they could dominate. It kind of looks to me like they are watered down a bit in the new rules (if the rules in codex chaos are the most recent??). So if you wanted to field something that would go head to head with a necron c'tan and win what would you go with?
 

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If you tell us what your DP has that would help.

The issue of DP v. a Greator Demon depends on what you want to use them for.

Do you face someone who uses C'tan, other greater demons, or Avatars regularly? If so I would probably use the bloodthirster. I would infiltrate a squad with a possessed AC to summon him.

If you face someone who uses a bunch of models with only one or two tooled up characters I would use the DP (depending on what you gave him). DPs can be very versitile, equiped to massacre whole squads or go character hunting.

Hope this helps. :)
 

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In most cases a daemon prince is better than a greater daemon. Pick any greater daemon, and I can make you a lord thats cheaper and more effective. For example, You could meake a khorne lord with stature, feel no pain, furious charge, dem. strength, dem toughness, dem essence, dem armour, MoK, a berzerker glaive, and spikey bits. This has less strength than a bloodthirster, but gets more attacks, the same amount of wounds, can only be wounded on a 6 by most opponents, has better armour, much much better initiative, and has the equivalent of 2 4+ invulnerable saves. The only weakness is that he can be insta-killed by S10 weapons. Other than that he's a cheaper, more effective killing machine. 8)
 

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Hmm I'm going to assume you mean a statured daemon prince?

They're both pretty good & won't let you down, but, I say go for the Daemon prince for the following reasons:

1) Daemon prince can be tooled a variety of ways. This is handy both to adapt to the size of conflict (point's thrown into the battle.) But also to reflect your own personal style as a player. Bloodthirster is always the same.

2) Daemon princes don't kill one of your models comming into the battlefield. Aspiring champions are the only models that can safely have powerfists, and represent a powerful force in CC. While getting a greater daemon is worth the sacrifice realise that this is part of the cost of getting him.

3) Inititive 5, being able to strike before marines& their likes can be priceless, this can be pushed to 6 on the charge with furious charge veteren skill, and be able to go before most commanders too.

4) A good daemon prince is usually going to be less points, this frees points for more troops. . .hmm makes me wonder are you doing black legion or world eaters, or perhaps word bearers? This does make a difference.

A few reasons to go with the bloodthirster
1) Toughness 6 means that he can't be instakilled.
2) They are a form of psychological warfare, I swear.

Really the're both good, I reccomend that you eventually get both, but if you want to know wich one first then go with the Prince.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
I was thinking of almost the same thing for my DP sounds real devastating to me. I do face a necron player every now and again that uses c'tan nightbringer usually and being the big cc fan that I am I have a big problem with shooting him dead. I would rather bring him down the proper way if I could. I think a DP would be insta killed by the nightbringer because hes a strength 10 right?
 

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There are two types of statured daemon princes, fire magnets, and really killy. If your list consists of mainly chaos marines and daemons, with no or few vehicles or terminators, then a fire magnet prince would not work. A killy prince could would give a shooty army the combat it needs, but a killy prince dies easy. The way to use a killy prince is to kill the most threatening unit. The prince will then usually die. The problem with a killy prince is that non-statured lords do it better.

A bloodthirster is a bit of both, a fire magnet and a bit killy. It costs more because of this. So, basically, you would firstly only take a bloodthirster if you had a couple of vehicles, obliterators, and terminators as well. And if you have that, you don't have a lot left to summon the bloodthirster. Basically, the argument follows on and comes to the logical conclusion that a bloodthirster is just not a good choice in under 2000pts.

I would stick to a non-statured daemon prince if you have a lot of marines and daemons, and take a statured prince with armour, aura, and resilience if you have 2-4 vehicles and oblits.
 

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was thinking of almost the same thing for my DP sounds real devastating to me. I do face a necron player every now and again that uses c'tan nightbringer usually and being the big cc fan that I am I have a big problem with shooting him dead. I would rather bring him down the proper way if I could. I think a DP would be insta killed by the nightbringer because hes a strength 10 right?
If your Daemon Prince is toughness 5, then yes, the Nightbringer would instant kill it unless you had a weapon that nullified this effect.

When against a Nightbringer, your probally gonna have to just shoot him down, although that can be hard because of his invulnerable save and high toughness. Sometimes its best just to ignore the Nightbringer and go for phase out, but sometimes its hard to ignore him. Usually you should be able to out manuever him because he can only move 6". That would probally be your best bet - trying to ignore him and go for phase out or shooting him down. Anyway I hope that helped at least a little...

Ben
 

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Put it this way, if the Nightbringer attacked a Bloodthirster it would mess it up thanks to its ignoring of all armour saves. Your best option against Necron would probably be a DP with a squad of chosen and just rip through the models classeed as Necrons. Thats how you beat cheesy players who use Monoliths or C'tans in 100 point armies
 

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RobtheGuru said:
Put it this way, if the Nightbringer attacked a Bloodthirster it would mess it up thanks to its ignoring of all armour saves. Your best option against Necron would probably be a DP with a squad of chosen and just rip through the models classeed as Necrons. Thats how you beat cheesy players who use Monoliths or C'tans in 100 point armies
hes right. If you plan on fighting a nightbringer in close combat dont plan on coming home. You will need about 4 daemon princes.
best tactic is make them fade out. attack their normal troops
 

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Retard said:
hes right. If you plan on fighting a nightbringer in close combat dont plan on coming home. You will need about 4 daemon princes.
best tactic is make them fade out. attack their normal troops
Well... That or one of the Forgworld Daemon Princes... Man those things are sweet. Not many things can beat the Slaanesh one. :yes:
 

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The slaanesh one is very weak. For 666 points you get something that a nightbringer is gonna molest in very bad ways 8 times out of 10. The khorne one is a bit better but I don't like the idea of putting nearly 900 points in one easily targetable model.
 

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Against a Nightbringer, you don't have an even chance at winning. Period. There is no model in the Chaos Codex that can stand up to him.

However, there are ways you can get lucky.

Gift of Chaos. You need to roll a six and hope he misses his Invulnerable save, however - but oh, is it so satisfying when you claim his Nightbringer as a Chaos Spawn.

Plague Sword. Requires one wound and a 4+ on a special roll. Easier said than done, however, due to the high toughness of Nightbringer and his Invulnerable save. It's unlikely you'll even get the first wound in the first place.

Dread Axe. Khornate NON-Statured Prince with a Dreadaxe stands the best chance at beating the Nightbringer (and even then, it's not so hot). You go Non-statured so he can't pick you out with his shooting attack. You don't need to worry about Strength, as you always wound on 4+. Load up with a large amount of attack mods, Mutation, Spiky Bits, even Rage of Khorne. On a lucky Rage roll, you can level nine attacks with a single reroll, so essentially 10 attacks.

Ten attacks, hitting on 4+ - five hits. Wounds on 4+, 2.5 wounds. Invulnerable save is negated. So with a little bit of luck, you might be able to roll a bit better and stand to take him down. However, it's just as likely you might roll worse and not even scratch him. And without Daemonic Rune, he will kill you when he strikes back.

As said - it's easiest to just ignore him and concentrate on phasing out the Warriors.
 

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The Mad Hatter said:
The slaanesh one is very weak. For 666 points you get something that a nightbringer is gonna molest in very bad ways 8 times out of 10. The khorne one is a bit better but I don't like the idea of putting nearly 900 points in one easily targetable model.
I disagree. The Slaanesh prince has I8, and the warp scream ability gives him/her basically I9. So he/she will be striking 1st. Now, with 7 attacks on the charge, NO saves aloud and never worse than 4+ to wound, I don't see how the nightbringer will "molest" him/her. Even though he/she may like that... :| Not to mention that he/she has access to every slaanesh power, so it can get even more bonuses in assault, and not even be shot at if he/she uses the siren power. So it will be assaulting with his/her 6 wounds.
 

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numberofthebeastxxx said:
I disagree. The Slaanesh prince has I8, and the warp scream ability gives him/her basically I9. So he/she will be striking 1st. Now, with 7 attacks on the charge, NO saves aloud and never worse than 4+ to wound, I don't see how the nightbringer will "molest" him/her. Even though he/she may like that... :| Not to mention that he/she has access to every slaanesh power, so it can get even more bonuses in assault, and not even be shot at if he/she uses the siren power. So it will be assaulting with his/her 6 wounds.
While I think the ForgeWorld Slaanesh Greater Daemon would win against the Nightbringer, it is still a bad idea. To combat a very expensive model, you're going to invest into an even more expensive model, nearly twice as many points? And after you've killed off the Nightbringer, what then? She's still horribly slow, and the Necrons can simply relocate to avoid her. So while you've invested a fair chunk of points into beating the C'tan, the Necrons army is free to dismantle your woefully pitiful force.

Pretty sad day when the Necrons can claim that you invested too many points into a HQ choice....
 

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Caluin said:
While I think the ForgeWorld Slaanesh Greater Daemon would win against the Nightbringer, it is still a bad idea. To combat a very expensive model, you're going to invest into an even more expensive model, nearly twice as many points? And after you've killed off the Nightbringer, what then? She's still horribly slow, and the Necrons can simply relocate to avoid her. So while you've invested a fair chunk of points into beating the C'tan, the Necrons army is free to dismantle your woefully pitiful force.

Pretty sad day when the Necrons can claim that you invested too many points into a HQ choice....
Oh, I agree completely Caluin. I was just proving that he/she would win, and not be "molested". My stategy to kill the nightbringer would be to shoot it a couple times and assault him with a high initiative, slaanesh prince with stature and a dreadaxe. Similair to what you suggested actually.
 

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In a straight fight a Bloodthirster will beat a Daemon Prince most of the time. However, I think you'll find the Daemon Prince to be a better option in every game where there aren't Str 10 weapons, or a few dozen BS 4 lascannons trained on you.

Cover: I love using princes as a kind of psychic power that says "all heavy weapons will shoot at this model next turn". With Stature, Glaive Resilience, Essence and Feel No Pain a DP can take a huge amount of hits before going down, at least 12 wounds with a lascannon, which is about 20 shots from a marine. But, it may die, so the Bloodthirster may be better because he's in combat when he comes out, and he won't be instant-killed from Str 10, but he's not as tough as a DP.

Killing Power: With a glaive a DP will kill more than a Thirster, but without the Thirster will have the advantage. This is true against almost anything. Wraithlords and other T6-8 nasties are the only exception, but they're rarely seen.

In the end I'd go with the DP. More consistent, and more in my game style. And the model is much cheaper, and it's stunning, where the head of the bloodthirster is still ugly.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
OK I am going to get the new DP model thanks for the help. I would also like to ask a couple of questions 1) where do I find the rules for the daemon princes that were mentioned?? 2) How does abaddons daemon sword work the way I am reading it (which is kind of vague) is there a roll to hit then it wounds automaticly and kills the victim outright with no armour saves allowed does that include inv. saves? I have all the special models but have never used them.
 

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Only1 said:
1) where do I find the rules for the daemon princes that were mentioned??
When people were using the term "Daemon Prince" they meant "A Chaos Lord with the Daemonic Stature Gift."

Only1 said:
2) How does abaddons daemon sword work the way I am reading it (which is kind of vague) is there a roll to hit then it wounds automaticly and kills the victim outright with no armour saves allowed does that include inv. saves? I have all the special models but have never used them.
Invulnerable saves can be taken normally against Abaddon's sword.
 

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If you really want an econimical way of killing a Nightbringer, don't tool up one guy to do it, use lesser daemons.
Plague bearers will own him, but take a big squad, 14 plagues bearers, 42 attacks 21 hits 10.5 wounds, 5.25 unsaved. Down in 1 round. (a few less will kill him a bit slower)
Daemonettes charging him stand a decent chance too: 12 daemonettes (again big squad) 36 attacks 6 rends, 3 wounds after invunerable save. this happens before he even gets to go. (best to soften him up with a bit of shooting first.)

Then you tool your lord for what lords do best, hurting rank and file troops. (vs necrons killing warriors.)
 

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numberofthebeastxxx said:
Well... That or one of the Forgworld Daemon Princes... Man those things are sweet. Not many things can beat the Slaanesh one. :yes:
Feeding my family for a month sure beats it :D
 
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