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Grand Master Lightning Claw, Storm Bolter, Terminator Armour, Iron Halo, Auspex
142

Command Group 5 Deathwing Terminators 235

Interigator-Chaplin Crozius Arcanum, Rosarius, Melta Bombs, Blades Of Reason, Jump Pack w/assault squad 120

5 Assault Squad Veteran Sergant, Power Weapon, Jump Packs, Melta Bombs, 2 Plasma Pistols. 185

Dreadnought Assault Cannon 105


10 Space Marines Plasma Cannon 165

6 Scout 6 x Sniper Rifles 108

9 Grey Knights Justicar, 2 x Incinerators 270

3 Ravenwing Bike Squadron Attackbike, Multi-melta, Veteran Sergant, Melta Bomb 170


this is my army list what do you think? the reason for all the melta weaponry is becaus i play alot of tank heavy armys. :?:
 

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Personally I think you should drop the master's iron halo, hes already got a 5+ INV save from terminator armour, your paying alot of points for marginal improvement.

Also, a technical note, you need a sergeant for your scout squad. As i found out much to my sagrin, despite the wording in the scout entry, scout sergeants really can't have sniper rifles, nor can he have a shot gun i believe.

Also, as a personal note I'm not to psyched on the amount of variety you have. no squad have any contemporaries and it seems every squad type is represented. Every army needs at least a little monatany.
 

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Although the Grey Knights give a whole lot of close combat power. I might switch it to a teleport squad to give some added mobility to get them into hth sooner. Heck if anything I would probably drop the Chaplain for another squad (since the Grey Knights and Grand Master give plenty of hth punch), but that's just me...
 

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You've got no cannon fodder. Any one of your squads going down could really throw a wrench in you strategies. I agree with Bornin, bolters can make just about any army keep their heads down.

Uncle Jesse
 

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On the other hand do you really want to have cannon fodder in a SM army?
I do agree that another tac squad would be good though. Their versatility for points is unmatched.
 

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Yeah...I guess using Grey Knights isn't the greatest of ideas...:D
I still would drop the Chaplain before the Knights though, maybe trim the scouts (or remove them) to get a few more points. Grey Knights are ubeleivably hard and I think would be worth it to keep in the army.
 

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The thing is if you cut down the size of the GK's then as soon as they've taken a few casualties their combat power is way down. Personally if I'm going to take a heavy hitting infantry squad, I like to keep it big so when it takes a few casualties it can still do damage.
 

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Yeah, but Space Marines can be kind of like that. If you play them right, being outnumbered can be overcome.
 

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Originally posted by BorninDarkness@Apr 4 2003, 15:01
Yeah they're nearly always outnumbered anyway, but you shouldn't try to overdo it, I really think that squad's too big.
I prefer to be heavily outnumbered playing SM...heck, I wouldn't mind usually being outpointed too. It's really in character. There are 1000 of them in each chapter and 1000 chapters for the entire galaxy, so...

From a tactical point of view it really comes down to style of play. I would much rather have 10 extremely good people than 20 slightly less capable people. Fewer numbers can play to your advantage if you use it right and stay mobile. On the other hand if you like to be able to lose a squad or two and still win, perhaps a different army list is in order...
 

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Hmm you're right there, SM should be up against impossible odds I guess, but no matter how good they are, numbers still count. I think the thing I don't like about this army list is simply that most of the eggs are in one basket: there's one squad of GK who are supposed to thear the enemy a new one, but they're no more difficult to kill than a normal tac squad, only when these guys go it means you lost a sizeable portion of the army, and it's main assault strength. And 10 guys aren't all that hard to kill, it only takes one turn of concentrated firepower for them to go down.
 

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Yeah, if you replace the 10 GK's with 15+ tac marines, you're going to have an army that's easier to use, more readily adaptable, and can absorb more enemy fire before becoming no longer an effective fighting force. Although remember that the GK do have their shrouding thing, so they will be somewhat harder to kill with shooting than a tac squad. They will still make for a more fragile force.

On the other hand, if you keep the GK's in you will have a force which is more challenging to use, requires more evolved tactics, and can act with almost unstoppable force if used properly. A small force of elite SM is kind of like a Japanese katana sword: it's really hard and if you hit in the right spot with the right amount of force at the right time and in the right way it is completely unstoppable. If you don't, it is likely to break. Personally I like that for SM because I think SM should be very challenging to use and that it is very characterful for them. I also much prefer a few elite troops who can cause utter devastation by striking in the right place at the right moment to a huge army that can just engage in a war of attrition (though both have their places). IMHO this elite force is what the SM are supposed to be but too often in the game they are so hard yet still numerous enough that they can actually engage in somewhat of an attrition style war.

If you want to have an army that will be easier to play, find some points (possibly by ditching some or all of the GK) to get some more marines on the field. If you want a small, elite, hard hitting but fragile force though, keep the GK (and in fact I might even go for some other expensive troops).

For tactics, if you do go with keeping the GK, be very careful. Do not try to engage your opponent across the entire width of the table, pick a flank and put your entire force pretty much all the way out on it. SM are pretty much the only army that can achieve this level of force concentration (SM and Chaos SM), with a huge amount of combat power spread over a very small front. Make your entire assault along that one flank (if you can't use a flank, still stick with a single narrow front for your assault), using terrain to minimize the number of troops the opponent can bring to bear. If you engage in a close in firefight or assault with an enemy force of roughly the same size, you will almost always win, especially if most of your army is in that firefight. Do not allow that assault to falter. You have to keep up the pressure, so push as hard as you can and do not let up! If you do need to regroup, have your units move as close together as possible. 1 battered SM squad can be tough to dislodge, but 2 or 3 battered SM squads can be nigh on immovable. Once you have committed your army to one avenue of attack, that is it, stick with it! Don't move one way then decide to go for a different attack point and redirect your attack.

When your attack starts to break through, make sure you keep your units together. It is tempting when your opponents individual squads start to fall back to pursue on a squad by squad basis, but this puts the pursuing unit at the risk of being isolated and engaged by a larger enemy force. Trust me, I've lost large numbers of SM before when I've had them pursue a squad falling back out of hth, just for that squad to run farther, regroup, then rapid fire at close range and decimate the squad (even with splinter rifles!). Keep your assault force together as a single army making a single, coordinated attack.

For the GK, I would recomend pretty much always taking them as a deep strike squad. Since they are GK you get to deep strike even when deep strike isn't allowed, so make use of that. I would drop them right behind your main assault force (say, maybe 4" or so), perhaps using a teleport homer in your main attack force, having them fire in the turn most of your army charges and charge in to hth in the next turn to push your assault home (or relieved a beleagured squad if your attack starts to falter). Just make sure they aren't too exposed to enemy shooting in the turn they teleport in to battle.

Like I said, this is going to be the more challenging way of going about things, but when it works, the results can be truely impressive. It is very hard for an opponent to defend against your entire army attacking at a single point, and I think that is the SM's biggest strength. It's harder, but it can be more characterful, and a lot cooler. B)
 

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I like your army concept, but there are a few changes I think I'd make. I occasionally use a Dark Angel list for my Fire Hawks (since I have a plasma weapon heavy army). DA tac squads with plasma cannons (and plasma rifles if you have extra points) rock! I think I'd drop the bike squad in favor of land speeders, especially if you play on terrain-heavy tables. As for the grey knights...I really like them, as they have both crazy firepower--effectively double that of a regular SM, and great close combat punch. I would probably go with psycannons over the incinerators against most armies just for the versatility to be able stand and shoot 36". As Grey Knights go, I am even more impressed by the terminators...they just rock! Not many more points than an regular term, and all with s6 power weapons...where do I sign up??? They look bad ass too! Hope this helps!
 

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About that war of attrition LRSeriesIII, you're right that normally this shouldn't be the role SM armies play, but I've fought several battles were it really came down to attrition with my Iron Warriors, against IG, and I've always come out on top, so it's not impossible.
Here's some more food for thought: how will the GK get into cc? They can't take transports so there's 2 options: footslog and teleport. Footslog if of course a bad idea, ideally you need to hug cover and that way it's likely that you'll not reach the enemy lines before turn 4, which limits the amount of kills they can make in the game.
The other, Teleport, gets them close quickly (if they show up in time that is), but they might scatter on top of an enemy unit (very bad) or become lost (about the worst thing that can happen). Let's assume they pop up close to the enemy. They can't assault now, so they'll just do some shooting. Now they're out in the open, and the entire enemy army has LoS to them, and the enemy's assault specialists could assault them before the GK/DA can soften them up.
 
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