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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
So I have a friend that I constantly chat with about 40k and Fantasy and today we were getting into a discussion about Dark Eldar builds and trying to keep a good solid comp score. He has been around the hobby for yeeeaaars, old Rogue Trader, and I have been in it for around 10 years (with about a 3 year break in the middle). Basically it boils down to having too many Dark Lances in my build and he says its cheesy...

I recently picked up about 4k points worth of DE for a steal at a bizarre bazzar and since then I have been really looking intensely into finishing up a good balanced list. (as I posted several months back)

So back to my dilemma, my friend is trying to tell me that taking too many DLs and taking a WWP is going to slam my comp score at Games Day/GTs. Puzzled I am trying to think of how on earth you can have a DE list that doesnt use DLs to a decent extent. I mean take 1 DL per squad? That's like an Imperial Guard list taking too few heavy weapons platforms because they are worried about having too much firepower, hah!! (keep in mind, this guy bought an all assault cannon terminator speeder list from another friend, something like 18 assault cannons at 1850 points give or take)

Anyhow, after mixing some things up I really cannot seem to find a good DE list that doesnt come across as what most would say is "cheesy" by incorporating 2 heavy weapons and at least a blaster or shredder in every Troop squad...

Anyone have the same issues where people feel that Dark Eldar are uber cheese because of their unique ability to select 2 heavy weapons and 2 "specials" per squad? Or do they just laugh it off because DE are so squishy?

Just to pre-empt questions, been building an 1850 list using 3 Wych Squads, 5 Warrior Squads (one of which is a secret WWP Sybarite holder), Archon on a bike kitted up, Dracon on foot with a WWP, 5 Jetbikes, 2 Ravagers and a Talos. In the hole are all the Wyches, Jetbikes, Ravagers, Talos, and a few Warrior Squads as appropriate depending on deployment.

Thoughts on having too much firepower for a DE list or is my friend just jealous of the DE sexiness?
 

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I think your friend is just jealous that he isn't playing Dark Eldar too.

That said, DL spam is probably the least cheesy thing we can do. Question: What kind of army does your friend play? I bet he either plays A.) A heavy vehicle army or B.) A High power/cost per model army that runs very few individual models. Against those types of armies, DLs just chew through everything. Against large model armies like Nids or Guard (or even Marines if you don't over upgrade your guys) DLs are minorly effective since so what if you auto kill one model per DL? They have 100 more where that came from.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Well the main contention was comp score during tournements. Apparently the Dark Eldar player that was at the latest Baltimore Games Day was only using 1 DL per squad and I kept scratching my head thinking why? (the guy that placed 11th and won best sportsmen) Or so I am told by those that saw the army there, I didnt personally see it and I am a huge fan of "screenshot or it never happened" but whichever...

So I went home and tried to pound out a list using a mix and match of DL/SC and some other Blaster/Shredder combos and I really just cant see justifying only 1 DL in a squad with nothing else. They are so cheap so it's not like you are shaving points to make them up somewhere more effective and really bang for the buck they are super sweet.

He plays:

-Tank Company
-BT
-Custom SM chapter with 15 Assault Cannons (Termies, Land Speeder, bare bones Tac)

The only reason I can think he had 1 DL per squad is because it was a Raider squad and he just flooded the board with Ghost ships but I still havent seen the list so I dont know for sure. That would be a funny build, 7-8 Troop choices all Raiders just racing across the board creating mass havoc and having the Wyches slip in during the chaos ;)
 

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The only reason I can think he had 1 DL per squad is because it was a Raider squad and he just flooded the board with Ghost ships but I still havent seen the list so I dont know for sure. That would be a funny build, 7-8 Troop choices all Raiders just racing across the board creating mass havoc and having the Wyches slip in during the chaos ;)
Technically two D.Lances per raider squad because of the D.Lance on the raider and one in the squad. I digress. I also didn't many D.Lances in the screen shot, but I also don't know what was missing from his movement tray, there were empty slots.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Yeah, that was the same one I found I dont know if that's his or not since it isnt marked.

Those spots look about what he might have had for some Reavers, and the one in the middle back maybe a Talos?

Hellions? Interesting...

2 Ravagers, 5 Raiders (4 Raider squads and a Wych Squad in the back?), Hellions, and if those missing holes were Reavers that's a wicked fast army...

Is he using Incubi models for his Sybarites?
 

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Yeah, that was the same one I found I dont know if that's his or not since it isnt marked.

Those spots look about what he might have had for some Reavers, and the one in the middle back maybe a Talos?

Hellions? Interesting...

2 Ravagers, 5 Raiders (4 Raider squads and a Wych Squad in the back?), Hellions, and if those missing holes were Reavers that's a wicked fast army...

Is he using Incubi models for his Sybarites?
I think so, I fits for the TH and Punisher combo. in looking at this, I'm curious if this is average for GD model count for DE.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
There were only 3 DE players out of 80 for that Baltimore Games Day... kinda sad. Hell, 3 Tyranids placed in the top 5 (1st, 3rd and 4th).

I think that model count is a little low for 1500 points but it looks like he was going for massive amounts of manueverability so he sac'd the larger squads in place of the Raider ones. Hell, there is a lot about that picture that we dont know, is that his full 1500 with some kitted out Raider gear? Who knows...

My current 1850 list that I am whittling down is over 70 models, so I dont think I am losing over 35-40 cutting 350 points.
 

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I wouldn't worry too much as far as being "cheesy" goes. The Dark Eldar can field a lot of dark lances true, but as has been said above, they're only really effective against certain types of units/armies.

Overall I wouldn't worry too much. If you beat people with a list, there's a good chance that they're going to find something cheesy about it. :p
 

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Archite of Caerbannog
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Get used to people you don't know, casual observers, potential opponents and the old experienced "know-it-alls" to call your army "cheesy" or call you a "power-gamer".

You will not convince anyone either other than some fellow Dark Eldar players that your army is not cheesy. As long as our encryptic codex is old and unclear you will never have a game where you won "fair and square" - the taint of 3rd edition and bad grammer looms...

At my store, the local "know-it-all" came in and has the store completely convinced that the DE are overpowered and broken. Even after years of gaming there and convincing everyone that the DE are a balanced army and despite my efforts to play "themed" lists my Dark Eldar army (and anyone who sports them no matter what the list composition) will be deemed "cheesy and broken". Yes, even friends who have beaten me and given me a good game all now have forgotten the balanced lists and I somehow beat them through an "unclear" codex and "loopholes" found in the conversion of 3rd edition into the 4th edition.

Currently, the units that are (by my store's opinion) broken:

Warriors are ranked #1. The low points for a high initiative warrior that can be in a large squad with a leader that has a weapon that ignores toughness and armor saves is too much for the marine players to bear. The idea that 2 warriors are cheaper than a marine and that they can strike first is just insane.

Also couple with the warriors is the ability to take such an awesome weapon as the Darklances for peanuts. We have the envy of every marine army as we can play their stupid min/max game better than them especially now that some of the chapters have limited the number of heavy weapons they can take - of course, this wasn't a problem before when they could take their heavy weapons but now they cant' and we can is deemed "not fair" I guess.

Next is wyches. We all know they are still cheaper than a warrior, get to half the WS of a marine, deny the extra attack for 2 cc weapons, get a 4+ inv. save in CC and get to have 2 blasters that are assault, str.8 AP2 and reduce the armor of a tank to 12 for cheap points. Also add the fact that they can jump out of a 12" moving vehicle, deploy for 2", fleet d6" and possibly charge for 12" if not 6" more inches.

The Lord also comes up in discussions and nothing makes me more mad than the arguement of the Shadowfield but yes, this is definitely "cheesy" by my stores standards. it wasn't too long ago but one game I had a wonderful game where I never rolled the "1" and because of it the shadowfield is now overpowered - somehow when my Archite throttled Abbadon the uber god in a turn and a half the store got into an uproar. Don't forget the high initiative we already sport and if you take a wych lord then forget it, we just get into the whole "wych" thing again.

Those 3 are the most common complaints against the DE at my store and nothing is going to convince them othewise. I am losing the desire sport an army that everyone thinks is cheesy even though I am considered to play the most balanced and themed lists out there. Oh well, my other army is Kroot (which isn't much better) so I may take my sons Orks and play them until the new DE codex comes out. It really sucks but I think I need to prove that when they lose to the DE that its not the army that beat them but the general.

P.S. take more than one DE sniper squad and I too would mark you down for comp. Sniper squads are sooo not DE and taking more than one is obviously a min/max tactic (I already think taking one is a min/max thing but 1 shouldn't be that bad).
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Well said Kwik, I have been trying to wrap my head around a good solid DE list for awhile and there are just so many possibilities that I really need to just go with one, learn, take some lumps, rinse, repeat...

Marking someone down for comp is fine, but what I am seeing are folks giving others 0's flat out. There was a local tourney not too long ago (last August maybe) and a few of the players were marking every single person they played down as 0 sportsmanship and 0 comp. When confronted about it their reply was "well everyone else is going to mark me a 0 so why not mitigate the point difference right up front and be forced to play to win". I was floored... After they were confronted about it they had to make up excuses why they were docking everyone points but still did it regardless. Even at a games day you can mark someone very low for comp and sportsmanship all you have to do is tell the judge when asked "he looked at me funny" or "he smells" and really what can they do? Make you change your score?? Using a good points based calculator and making sure you have an even point spread across your selections, not overloading on heavies like some do, etc... you can try and garuntee that you will never get a 0 for comp just because of your army choice.

Based on that, I am trying to ride the fence of a solid DE list while still skirting that comp score so I cannot be docked for points just because of playing DE.
 

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Archite of Caerbannog
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theres such a thing as too much firepower?
Absolutely. Making a list that provides you as many Dark Lances as possible is "too much" in anyone's book.

I may have substituted "firepower" for just "power" but my point remains the same - its not your perception if you have too much "firepower" or not, its your opponent.
 

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Those 3 are the most common complaints against the DE at my store and nothing is going to convince them othewise. I am losing the desire sport an army that everyone thinks is cheesy even though I am considered to play the most balanced and themed lists out there. Oh well, my other army is Kroot (which isn't much better) so I may take my sons Orks and play them until the new DE codex comes out. It really sucks but I think I need to prove that when they lose to the DE that its not the army that beat them but the general.
Why not call yourself a powergamer, wear the tag with pride, and laugh as you slaughter the helpless fluffites.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
I'm about ready to Forged... with all the whining and complaining I just want to smash people into the dirt and then laugh about it.

Then again, being a good sport is something I have always tried to maintain but with all the complaining that is slowly going by the wayside these days ;)
 

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Archite of Caerbannog
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Why not call yourself a powergamer, wear the tag with pride, and laugh as you slaughter the helpless fluffites.
LOL! I did last week and when I started an escalation leaque starting at 500 points. Last time I played a Kroot army and got my arse handed to me on a stick so I thought I would get back to my first love, Wych Cult. My feelings were, "deal with it".

First, opponent - Slaneesh player with noise marines and the lash. He had a crappy list with really bad tactics. I had a Dracite with 2 wych squads, game was pretty much decided when charged him first turn. The Dracite was a complete "blur" as she single handedly killed a chaos marine squad and took the "lash" lord by turn 3, game over. Never rolled the "1" the entire game and I laughed as the opponent was a GW employee. In this instance I had no problem slamming my opponent especially a "lash" list.

Second game was against Necrons and at 500 points he's pretty limited. I got alot of grief for playing wych cult and was told how Dark Eldar are the best army below 1000 points. I had 4 blasters, 2 disintegrators, 2 squads of wyches and a Dracite with the "Energiser Bunny" inv. save. He didn't want to play me and just acted defeated. Of course I obliged but I felt bad as again as my Dracite never rolled the "1" (in 2 games! thats a world record!). Dracite again "swept" an entire squad of Necrons and killed the Necron Lord with the orb (twice!).

I thought wanted to be the "power-gamer" persona in this escalation league but I don't like it when I play new people for the first time and slaughter them - they may not want to play me later on. Do I get over it? I did get the "slaughter them" nod of approval from the GW store manager - he seems to know that DE are balanced (or thinks he can beat me).

So I am waffling on what to do - do I lay low with the DE until they get an "official" 5th edition codex or do I just prove everyone right that the DE are a broken power-gaming army (nevermind that it just may be that the general of the army is what beat them) and slaughter them?

Currently, I am thinking only playing DE in Apocolypse games (where everyone is "cheesy" and withdraw from the escalation league. I have a budding Kroot army that goes to 1500 points (1750 by next week) or I can use my sons army of Orks that are now being put together.

But then again the slave pens are running low and the last "play things" we enslaved phased out - darn toasters!
 

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LOL! I did last week and when I started an escalation leaque starting at 500 points. Last time I played a Kroot army and got my arse handed to me on a stick so I thought I would get back to my first love, Wych Cult. My feelings were, "deal with it".

First, opponent - Slaneesh player with noise marines and the lash. He had a crappy list with really bad tactics. I had a Dracite with 2 wych squads, game was pretty much decided when charged him first turn. The Dracite was a complete "blur" as she single handedly killed a chaos marine squad and took the "lash" lord by turn 3, game over. Never rolled the "1" the entire game and I laughed as the opponent was a GW employee. In this instance I had no problem slamming my opponent especially a "lash" list.

Second game was against Necrons and at 500 points he's pretty limited. I got alot of grief for playing wych cult and was told how Dark Eldar are the best army below 1000 points. I had 4 blasters, 2 disintegrators, 2 squads of wyches and a Dracite with the "Energiser Bunny" inv. save. He didn't want to play me and just acted defeated. Of course I obliged but I felt bad as again as my Dracite never rolled the "1" (in 2 games! thats a world record!). Dracite again "swept" an entire squad of Necrons and killed the Necron Lord with the orb (twice!).

I thought wanted to be the "power-gamer" persona in this escalation league but I don't like it when I play new people for the first time and slaughter them - they may not want to play me later on. Do I get over it? I did get the "slaughter them" nod of approval from the GW store manager - he seems to know that DE are balanced (or thinks he can beat me).

So I am waffling on what to do - do I lay low with the DE until they get an "official" 5th edition codex or do I just prove everyone right that the DE are a broken power-gaming army (nevermind that it just may be that the general of the army is what beat them) and slaughter them?

Currently, I am thinking only playing DE in Apocolypse games (where everyone is "cheesy" and withdraw from the escalation league. I have a budding Kroot army that goes to 1500 points (1750 by next week) or I can use my sons army of Orks that are now being put together.

But then again the slave pens are running low and the last "play things" we enslaved phased out - darn toasters!
vote Slaughter, but try it again with a kabal instead of a cult.
 
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