[kpooh]

Hi all,

I've only played a few games with the Dark Elves, so I'm just learning the army. I'm also new to FB as well. I'm finding myself going up against opponents who play Britonians, WoC, and empire (lots of troops with 2+ armor saves)

I use reapers, CoK, BG and the odd greatweapon to deal with this, but i'm wondering what people think of the banner of murder? What are some effective ways of using it? Does it work better with units that have a low S rating like Corsairs or maybe Dark Riders? Or is it better used to buff units like BG to just to give them that extra punch?

Anyway, ANY dirty tricks vs. armor would be much appreciated.

 

[notabot187]

Banner of murder works best when you need to stretch a few percentage points. So any unit that has low enough strength to need it and high enough volume to make good use of it are great places for it. Personally that means only witches make use of it in my army. With 3 attacks with frenzy, and the fact they wound quite a bit more than s3 should (due to poison) they are by far the best unit to use it. Corsairs are OK with it, but since they only get 2 attacks, and no poison, they aren't as good for it, in fact 2 ranks of spears is the same thing.

One of the reasons why I am a big proponent of a strong magic phase is how good lore of metal is against the true heavy armor units. So having 8 or so power dice with lore of metal as an option is a great way to deal with armor. Also the manbane rending star assassin can really put the hurt on heavy armored units, with his T+2 strength thrown weapons.

 

[GMJoeSolarte]

but you can't always count on it either.

For you dealing with these high armor save armies, you do have several options:

1) War Hydras- If you can win the battle of positioning, your war hydra between it's high T, its own armor save, and Regeneration, you do have the chance of going head to head with the heaviest armored knights and winning.

2) Dark Magic- I know there is at least 1 spell that allows for no armor saves of it's hits; add to it the tremendous magic advantage you can can also negate this.

3) RBT- obviously.

4) Repeating Crossbows in this edition offer you a -1 armor save. Keep that in mind.

 

[Xzazzarai]

There is one thing that all armies with lots of armour fear:

Lore of METAL!

Go magic-heavy, pick lore of metal and pray for spirit of the forge, the #6 spell.
The more armour they have - the more it hurts!
The default spell is allso extremely good for sniping off characters and unit champions!

I'm used to play vs my friends WoC, and everytime I go with a magic-heavy list he is in big trouble, and he knows it!

Armour piercing won't do much vs Chaos or Empire knights, sience both will be saving at 2+ anyway.
I can imagine it being good on a corsair unit though, or witch elves.
RXbs (though having a hard time kille the aforementioned knights) are great! with enough shots fired, even the toughest units will begin to fail their saves eventually!

Allso, get a couldron of blood for that Killing Blow blessing.

If you want some kind of semi-deathstar build, try one of those:

14 Executioners, full command.
Cauldron.
Death Hag BSB with banner of Hag Greaf and some nasty gifts, with the executioner unit.
Giv them +1 attack and watch them cut down ANYTHING they come across!
Though, keep in mind, that the Death Hag is frenzied!

This build is extremly vulnerable to shooting, so keep that in mind! If you know you are facing a list with lots of shooting, it's probably not worth it.

Another nasty build is with this:
5 Cold One Knights, full command. Ring of Hotek for champ.
Master BSB, knight kit and Hydra banner.
Cauldron if you want to be really nasty.

This unit hits allmost as hard as bloodknights, but they have hatred and no frenzy, so they can't be baited as easily!
10-15 kills vs T4 2+ AS units is not uncommon!

And again: Lore of metal!!!

 

[kpooh]

Armour piercing won't do much vs Chaos or Empire knights, sience both will be saving at 2+ anyway.
I can imagine it being good on a corsair unit though, or witch elves.
RXbs (though having a hard time kille the aforementioned knights) are great! with enough shots fired, even the toughest units will begin to fail their saves eventually!

That's kinda been my problem. I've been throwing lots of bolts at armor and hoping my opponent gets bad saving rolls.... works alright....but it's not giving me great results. My opponents are pretty sharp...they go right for the ranged units and magic users...I do a good job at keeping them alive, but I'm often forced into a defensive position pretty quickly (which often spells disaster for my rank and file defensive guys). A Cauldron of Blood and a War Hydra will probably cause them to think twice about rushing my side of the board...

Lore of metal sounds like a good bet! What I'm trying to do now is not rely on one static tactic for dealing with armor; I'd like to have a combination of things that, when put together, make my opponent a little more nervous. I'm the only person in my gaming group playing DE....and I'm a noob playing against veterans (no I dont expect to win much, but do I expect to get a good education). My assassin and sorceresses put the fear of God into them, but I'd like to multiply those feelings of terror and anxiety...(war hydra and cauldron of blood are on my Christmas list)

Again lots of good advice guys. Thanks to everyone whose replied here. I've got a lot to go on, lots to think about...thanks for being noob friendly and helping a guy out!

 

[notabot187]

One thing I found pretty early one playing DE, is although the RxB is really good at what it does, taking crossbow warriors isn't the best way to get them in the list. Since they stretch out your deployment and require clear fire lines, they take away the main strengths of the DE list: mobility and concentration of force. The RxBs I use are on shades (who hit more often and can scout, and actually do CC well with GWs) and dark riders. They are small but cheap units that have a much larger range of tactics they can be used in.

Pairs of RBTs do pretty well, since they don't take up much space, deliver a high number of quality shots, and can take down things that are really hard for DE to take down (like high T monsters) Add in their utility for taking out armored units, they are a much better buy than rxb warriors, assuming you have the rare slots available. (the hydra is hard to pass up, since it is cheaper and more flexible)

Avoid executioners. If you spend enough point for them to actually do what you wan them to, they end up as huge point sink. They are an obvious target to be killed at range, or avoided at all costs. I really wish they were better, since I actually like their HE equal, but the lack of native ability to take the ASF banner, 1 attack and the khainite rule, makes them not worth the points. Small units don't do too bad, but they still are most at home in a cauldron list.

 

[GMJoeSolarte]

I'm not 100% on this one, but I do believe that the War Hydra's beast masters carry whips that ignore all armor saves. If so, there are two more attacks that the War Hydra can throw at an armored knight.

From a magic standpoint, I believe one of the basic dark elf spells is one that is a magic missle that if it hits, also halves their M for the next turn. I'm not 100% on that one though.

 

[kpooh]

Chillwind prevents firing on the next turn.

But you do make a good point about DE magic, it does have some pretty nasty spells that basically ignore Armor. I usually go "Dark Magic" "Lore of Shadows" but i'm thinking Lore of Metal will rock vs. armor.

And yes, I did check on the Beastmaster's Scourge the rules state that "all the weilder's close combat attacks are armor piercing...thanks for that little gem

 

[notabot187]

I'm not 100% on this one, but I do believe that the War Hydra's beast masters carry whips that ignore all armor saves. If so, there are two more attacks that the War Hydra can throw at an armored knight.

From a magic standpoint, I believe one of the basic dark elf spells is one that is a magic missle that if it hits, also halves their M for the next turn. I'm not 100% on that one though.

The beat master weapons are S3, armor piercing. They DO NOT ignore armor. There is a big difference. Armor piercing being just a simple -1 to the normal save. So the same thing as a RxB shot. The nice thing is beatmasters have 2 base attacks, and 3 due to the fact they have 2 HW (beastmaster scourge is a HW) It makes it worth sending a killing blow blessing at the hydra now and again.