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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Powerfists vs. Monolith. Extra str added?

Everything Ive read except for the piece in the FAQ on this site says no. The FAQ on this site says a possible understanding is as follows:

"The 'Doubling scores' in the FAQ refers to Ork Super Stikk Bombs, because they doubled the result of the D6 before adding strength when penetrating i.e Str + (D6 x 2). Before the FAQ, Orks were capable of decimating Monoliths because of this 'doubling bonus', whilst every other race was penalized. The quoted wording is to clear this up, but as usual, GW isn't thorough enough to state this themselves. Also remember, this FAQ was before the RAW era:D

Hence, 'Fists and Strength enhancing weaponry and gear is allowed, because it is still only Strength + single D6, the original intention of the Living Armour rule."

GW Codex and FAQ say no, that excerpt says yes. Which is it?
 

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Supreme Evil Overlord
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You get no bonus penetration against the monolith, powerfist and dreadnough ccw do not provide a bonus to penetration, so they are un-affected by the living metal.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Yea I guess its how you read it. When I see "bonus to pen" I would see double str being a bonus to pen...but by wording Dreads and fists would be "bonus to str".
 

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ISIS Secret Agent Squishy
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Would a model have a chance of damaging the Lith without the double-Strength effect of a Powerfist? No.
The FAQ states quite explicitly, that "extra penetration dice and doubling scores are much the same thing". A model's Strength is a score. The Powerfist doubles that score. Therefore it is not included.
Just because we use the term "stat" more often than "score" does not mean that is it not the case.
 

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Wait a second....

"When attacking a monolith, extra penetration dice and doubling scores are much the same thing - don't count any bonus penetration of any sort against the monolith....."

Strength is doubled with power fists. Why deosn't this apply.?
 

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Would a model have a chance of damaging the Lith without the double-Strength effect of a Powerfist? No.
The FAQ states quite explicitly, that "extra penetration dice and doubling scores are much the same thing". A model's Strength is a score. The Powerfist doubles that score. Therefore it is not included.
Just because we use the term "stat" more often than "score" does not mean that is it not the case.
I beg to differ. Substituting one word for another, thusly calling it arbitrary, is not an acceptable arguement. They are not the same. A score may be tallied and a statistic may be fixed. These are loose attributes of the words but it is sufficient to point out that they aren't the same.

Doubling scores would be those that require rolling a D6 and then doubling it as an action.

Furthermore, Living Metal prohibits extra penetration. This refers to bonuses to penetration specifically. Powerfists and DCCWs are Strength modifiers. The Strength statistic, for models equipped with such devices, is fixed, most notibly in the profiles of Dreadnoughts.

The process of determining penetration involves adding Strength (whatever it may be) to a roll for penetration. Living Metal, in all the examples it lists, refers to equipment that give bonuses specifically to penetration. Penetration, being a fluid number, is calculated when required and is prevented from getting bonuses. It decribes the special properties a weapon gets towards penetrating armour, above and beyond its base Strength.

Strength is a static number. One certainly wouldn't deny a model with a natural S10 from using its value. Similarly, a model with a PF, and more obviously the Dreadnought that has representation in its stat-line, have base Strength values to which are added to their penetration.
 

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Under weapon Skill pg 12

"The higher the score , the more likely the warrior will land blows on a close Combat opponent. "

"score" is sited in several other paragraphs on the page, including BS and I.

Strength is a score, Penetration is the Strength score doubled when using a powerfist, thus ANY bonus penatation (the double score from 4 to 8 is Void). Because any bonus penetration of any sort is not counted.

"the only exception is the vindicare assassin's tourbo penetration round."
 

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ISIS Secret Agent Squishy
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I beg to differ. Substituting one word for another, thusly calling it arbitrary, is not an acceptable arguement. They are not the same. A score may be tallied and a statistic may be fixed. These are loose attributes of the words but it is sufficient to point out that they aren't the same.
Please cite a case where GW has been 100% consistant with any terminology...
 

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Please cite a case where GW has been 100% consistant with any terminology...
Wouldn't you agree that this expectation is a bit disingenuous? Do you really want a case demonstrating absolute certainty? That's obviously impossible. Anyhow, it is not required for this arguement.

Strength is a score,
Fine, I won't argue against it, but...

Penetration is the Strength score doubled...
Penetration is not the Strength score doubled. Penetration is the Strength (whatever that may be) plus a roll (or rolls for doubling).

...when using a powerfist, thus ANY bonus penatation (the double score from 4 to 8 is Void).
The doubling, for Power Fists, doesn't take place on any roll for penetration. It is a factor in the model's base state. When it comes time for penetration rolls, that base Strength (as I've described earlier) is then added to the roll.

Because any bonus penetration of any sort is not counted.
Agreed. But Power Fist Strength doubling is not a bonus to penetration, it is a bonus to the model's stat, or score, whatever have you.

I'm curious, does a Dreadnought with a DCCW use a S10 or a S6 when rolling for penetration?
 

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"Penetration is the Strength (whatever that may be) plus a roll (or rolls for doubling). "

true and because the strength score has been doubled and is in essence Bonus Penetration, ie penetration that would normal not be there, ie tank hunter veteran skills.

so.. to answer your question.....

"I'm curious, does a Dreadnought with a DCCW use a S10 or a S6 when rolling for penetration? "

S6 it is......

Just because its big and bad doesn't mean it can harm living metal.
A monstrous creature loses its extra D6 for penetration, so be it with a dreadnought...

Penetration = D6 + Strength
When attacking a monolith, extra penetration dice and doubling scores are much the same thing - don't count any bonus penetration of any sort against the monolith.....

You have to ask yourself these questions..
Are you using any extra penetration dice?, Have you doubled any scores (ie Strength) ?Have you added anything on to it (ie tank hunters)? DONT.. its not allowed in the rules.

If you can't crack the mono........ use a bigger gun.....
 

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King of Librarium's Tombs
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DCCW make you base S10 so long as you have them, so they cant be lowered to 6 even by the lith. Its like T4(5) for bikers.
 

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LO Zealot
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The way I see it augmented strength against vehicles is something like rending where d6 are added to d6's and thats your strength. But it's really impossible to argue this to someone cause the same response comes up every time. " WHY" , "SHOW ME IN THE RULE BOOK!" All in all, I don't want to cause trouble so I let it go by. But for anyone looking for clarification Kore is your man, he has the Necron rules down solid.
 

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It seems that all the main-repliers have spoken, so I hope that I'll be contributing to this thread and not taking up space. Here's the deal.

Terminators with Power Fists and Dreadnoughts with DCCWs use their doubled strength number when rolling for penetration of a Monolith. On the Dreadnought stat line, it is the number in parenthesis, for Terminators, it is their strength number times 2.

The reason these apply while attempting an Armor Penetration roll against a Monolith is because they are bonuses to strength, not to penetration. Living Metal only augments itself against the penetration attempt, it does not alter a model's strength.

Now lets look at the counter-argument, namely the phrase "extra dice and doubling scores are one in the same" I agree with this statement. If a model gets extra dice or doubles their strength for the purposes of Armor Penetration, then living metal would disallow it. However, Power Fists and Dreadnoughts with DCCWs do not double their strength for the purposes of Armor Penetration. They simply double their strength, therefore are unaffected by Living Metal.

In the Necron Codex, Living Metal only protected against weapons that rolled 2, 3, or more d6 for Armor Penetration....that's all well and good. However, the phrase (extra dice and doubling scores are one in the same) came about in the GW FAQ. The reason this is there is to counter a weapon that doubles the wielder's strength while attempting an armor penetration. If you read the rest of the paragraph on the Necron FAQ, (Monolith heading, 7th bullet) it states WHY the Vindicator Assassin's turbo-penetrator round DOES work against a Monolith; it's not a bonus to penetration.

Therefore, Terminators with Power Fists and Dreadnoughts with DCCWs will use their higher strength score while only rolling a single d6 to penetrate the Living Metal of a Monolith.

I hope this post has done 3 things:
1. Helped and contributed to this thread
2. Cleared up any confusion regarding "extra dice and doubling scores'
3. Not violated any copyright laws or the such.

At any rate, that's what I have to say about that. All the best,

jroode
 

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ISIS Secret Agent Squishy
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If you read the rest of the paragraph on the Necron FAQ, (Monolith heading, 7th bullet) it states WHY the Vindicator Assassin's turbo-penetrator round DOES work against a Monolith; it's not a bonus to penetration.
I think that needs to be clarified a little.
The section of the bullet point you are talking about starts with: (Emphasis mine)
Necron FAQ said:
The ONLY exception is the Vindicare Assassin's turbo-penetrator round.
This means that there are NO other exceptions, including Powerfists.

However, Power Fists and Dreadnoughts with DCCWs do not double their strength for the purposes of Armor Penetration. They simply double their strength, therefore are unaffected by Living Metal.
It seems that you're trying to say that the Monolith sees a guy in Power Armour walking up to him, but because he only has a really big glove on, it doesn't try to protect itself?

As the FAQ states: (Emphasis in FAQ)
Necron FAQ said:
don't count any bonus penetration of any sort against a monolith
Combine that with the "extra penetration dice and doubling scores are much the same thing" line, and it doesn't leave much leeway for arguement. Because the Marine/whatever can elect to attack without using the Powerfist, then it is a calculated (doubled) score.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
I noticed an older Necron codex vs. mine. Mine specifically states "Unaugmented Strength"...thats pretty cut and dry no? (p21, last sentence on Living Armor)

Dread weapon and Power fists augment strength ie- Adding base score of unit.
 

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So mostly it comes down to when the Strength of P = D6 + Strength is being figured.

One side of the fence looks at Strength being figured and static BEFORE the equation is being resolved the other looks at it when it is being resolved.

Ex. Marine w/ power fist. P = D6 + 8. Strength is a Static 8.

Vs. Marine w/ Power fist P = D6 + (4x2). Strength is resolved at the time of penetration because the marine doesn’t HAVE to attack with it, It is wargear much as the TANK HUNTER ability. If he has a close combat weapon he may choose to attack with that at a better init.

My argument lays with the Strength should first be figured in it natural state. P = D6 + (0 to 10). Then modifications imposed upon it. And as the strength is doubled it violates the rule.

I believe the other side of the fence sees it as its already Strength 8 so it in effect is not doubled or a bonus. So it is valid.

However if that were the case then tank hunters would get their added penetration bonus. It is an ability that is granted prior to the penetration roll. It would be included in the marines penetration score P = D6 + (4x2) +1 if it were say a tau hammerhead. However the tank hunter added bonus is specifically excluded in the case of a monolith. As wargear and abilities are things that modify the foumula of Penetration, they should be included in the formula when they are resolved.

So i guess we agree to disagree... lets just dice off for it..

But it sure would be nice for GW to make it 100% clear for everyone.
;?
 

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ISIS Secret Agent Squishy
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I noticed an older Necron codex vs. mine. Mine specifically states "Unaugmented Strength"...thats pretty cut and dry no? (p21, last sentence on Living Armor)

Dread weapon and Power fists augment strength ie- Adding base score of unit.
I guess people stopped looking at the Codex's original rule (including me), when the FAQ was released. When it comes down to it, "Unaugmented Strength" just adds the final nail in the tomb for the "Powerfists are possible" crew. You just can't argue that a Powerfist doesn't augment the model's Strength.
 

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I guess people stopped looking at the Codex's original rule (including me), when the FAQ was released. When it comes down to it, "Unaugmented Strength" just adds the final nail in the tomb for the "Powerfists are possible" crew. You just can't argue that a Powerfist doesn't augment the model's Strength.
Well, I admit error here. It happens that I own 3 copies of the first printing. Looking at the second printing it is obvious, in no uncertain terms, that the Powerfist and DCCW (along with things like Wraithlords) have no beneficial effect against Living Metal. Why couldn't someone point this out earlier. I suppose I should buy a second printing, but I won't.

Look at the first print, it mentions nothing about Strength. I could definitely see how this would be frustrating to those I opposed. Sorry. 0:

Cheers.
 
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