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Benevolent Dictator
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Yeah, the argument between Gryphs and Knights really comes down to role - and to be honest, I think that the Knights are the more useful regiment. Gryphs make excellent shock cavalry, but that's not how Empire plays their game. You get 4 Gryphs, charge them forward and smash into a regiment and then... they're usually steadfast and you spend several more turns grinding them down. Alternatively, you send in an Infantry regiment to do the grinding, and spend the points from the Gryphs on ~10 Knights and get a Disruption from a Flank charge. Now you've got +2 for the Flank Charge, +X for the kills, and most importantly, -Ranks for your enemy. The days of Cavalry charging off to "do their own thing" are long gone - now they're fast-moving flankers, or interdiction units. In the latter role, Gryphs are too expensive to spend all game chasing after enemy Fast Cav or Skirmishers.

I tend to go with Knights, but that's not saying that I still don't use Demigryphs. I just wouldn't take Demis in a title fight.
 

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I agree. I'd take gryphs to go romping around trashing the enemy backfield (shooty units, war machines) without worrying about them getting into a fight they can't handle, but only in a big game...like 2500 or 3k. Anything smaller, and they don't fit. It's a luxury choice.
 

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kroxigor01 said:
I disagree completely. An opponent is never going to expose a flank of such a large unit to 10 knights (he will probably kill 1 knight, then advance and laugh). The Demigryphs are more survivable and more hard hitting than the knights (per point). IMO empires game is attrition these days and the Demigryphs a staple.
And if you're dumb enough to take exactly ten knights, you deserve that fate! (and if my knights scare him away from my swordsmen, excellent!)

Besides, the -3 CR is nothing more than icing on the cake. The +2 for a flank charge, plus all of the casualties inflicted on the charge, that is the key. If the enemy is steadfast, disruption is meaningless, but the wounds influcted are not. If he isn't, then a flank charge, even if it doesn't disrupt, will put a healthy 7+ CR on the stack.

I do see another good use for gryphs, though, and that is hammering hammer units. A block of trolls or ushabti or whatnot...they'll hurt the gryphs, but the gryphs will kill them in the process, not only keeping that monstrous infantry out of your flank, but scoring enough VP to put you over the top in a VP-denial stalemate.
 

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Benevolent Dictator
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In games of attrition, why would you put so many points into a single model, when you can almost get whole ranks of Horded infantry for that price? 4 Demigrpyhs is 38 Halberdiers. If our war is a battle of attrition, I'm pretty sure that the Halbies are going to outlast the Gryphs. What role do Gryphs have in an attrition army that Knights can't also fill?

No, an opponent may never willingly turn a flank to your Knights, but that's not to say that you shouldn't be prepared when the opportunity presents itself. Like Marne said, you don't run 10 Knights - yes, you're investing a bit more on the Knights than you would on Gryphs, but you're gaining an advantage over the Gryph regiment as well. If your enemy doesn't show his flanks, are you really going to smash a block of Gryphs right into his face? He's going to be Steadfast, you'll lose your Gryphs or at least have them tied up for a long time fighting against a unit that's not worth the effort. Marne mentions running rampant in the backfield - I agree, but then, is your enemy any more likely to expose his flank as he is to leave a Demigryph-sized hole in his front lines?

Just because Empire phalanxes up and tends to fight a battle doesn't mean that we can't still manipulate our enemy. Screen our flanks with Detachments, turn back a bit and let the enemy pull onto an angled front is just one option that we've got.
 

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RAWR! KROXIGOR!!
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Besides, the -3 CR is nothing more than icing on the cake. The +2 for a flank charge, plus all of the casualties inflicted on the charge, that is the key. If the enemy is steadfast, disruption is meaningless, but the wounds influcted are not. If he isn't, then a flank charge, even if it doesn't disrupt, will put a healthy 7+ CR on the stack.
Replace the knights with 4 demigryphs. In most cases the demigryphs add equal CR as the knight unit but through kills instead of negating ranks. Also, what units do you fight that can survive being engaged to the front and charged in the flank by a unit of knights and still have 20 models left to give the +3 rank bonus? Against such big and resilient units, +3 CR isn't going to help at all. Lots of wounds in protracted combat (ie - Demigryph knights) is what will shift them.

In games of attrition, why would you put so many points into a single model, when you can almost get whole ranks of Horded infantry for that price? 4 Demigrpyhs is 38 Halberdiers. If our war is a battle of attrition, I'm pretty sure that the Halbies are going to outlast the Gryphs. What role do Gryphs have in an attrition army that Knights can't also fill?
Your reasoning is almost right but your conclusion wrong. My list is based around a deathstar of 80 halberdiers with BSB, Arch lector and Warrior Priest in, giving buffs to 2 detachments of 40 more halberdiers. Halberdiers are the best attrition troops in the game, but unfortunately some opponents have things with good armour and high toughness that the Halberdiers can never hurt. There are 2 options to dealing with this; get more buffs (ie - Mindrazor being the best fit) or get a unit with high strength that can eat opposing knights/monsters. I'm already relying on all my magic dice to force through hammer of sigmar so I go for the latter. Note that I also take 2 cannons in case there are monsters that even my Demigryphs are scared of/can't catch are on the board.

Also, Demigryph knight's point/wound ratio is the smallest of all 1+ armour save units in the game. Points per wound is the most important stat when talking about attrition. I've even thought of making an army made entirely of models with 1+ saves (3 units of Demigryphs + dozens of knights) and a single Heavens wizard. Harmonic Convergence makes 2+ saves 500% tougher to crack :eek:
 

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Thread....O Mancy...

Sorry for that. I was looking into Demi's and rather than start a new thread I decided to post here.

So I bought a unit of 3. I was thinking of picking up 1 more so I could run them 4 wide and get maximum frontage vs hordes (10 across) according to my bases at least.
A plan to do the lance and shield and use them as a hammer unit. Given that they only have 3 models is it worth taking the Full Command? I was thinking of leaving them bare bones normal with no command at all.

Also another question, why not take 10 knights? if one dies we lose rank bonus being the reason I assume, jut checking to see if I am missing anything.

Has anything been cleared up in teh FAQ in regards to the monsterous cav getting supporting attacks when there is a rider. The two rules seem contradictory.
Thanks
 

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Drill Sergeant
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With monstrous cav only the rider gets to fight in the second rank and he can make up to 3 attacks. The Demigryph just gets to stand around. ........yay.

Full command isn't worth it. The champion certainly isn't. Musician could help if you flee or panic and the standard can help combat res and fortitude so if you have points spare they're not 'bad' upgrades.

:)
 

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Most importantly, though, you have the "maximum attacks thing wrong. Against a horde, being four wide gives your enemy, not yourself, maximum attacks. If you were three wide, he'd only get 80% of his attacks. For you to get maximum attacks against an enemy who is 200mm wide, you'd need a Frontage of six, not four, demigryphs. That said, you'd still be an idiot if you slammed demigryphs headlong into a horde. They'd almost certainly be steadfast for at least two rounds of combat and not cost as much as you OR be the sort of deathstar that even gryphs don't like to face head-on (I have seen a white lion horde...once. Demigryphs with a 4+ save are kinda 'meh.') If you use them, for Sigmar's sake, don't go around thinking they're a chosenstar with faster movement!
 

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RAWR! KROXIGOR!!
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That said, you'd still be an idiot if you slammed demigryphs headlong into a horde. They'd almost certainly be steadfast for at least two rounds of combat and not cost as much as you OR be the sort of deathstar that even gryphs don't like to face head-on (I have seen a white lion horde...once. Demigryphs with a 4+ save are kinda 'meh.') If you use them, for Sigmar's sake, don't go around thinking they're a chosenstar with faster movement!
Depends. If the horde only has S4 or less it's not like your going to lose many demigryphs. I would happily charge the demigryphs straight in while later charging a halberdier bus to engage corner to corner (breaking their steadfast without being in much danger).
 

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Benevolent Dictator
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The riders will get Hatred, for what it matters. Psychology generally does not translate down to the mounts like that though, so the Demigryphs themselves will not get re-rolls. Because of that, I'd say that it's not worth adding a Priest to the unit - the Gryphs are the ones doing the majority of the damage, the riders are just there to point them in the right direction and yell encouragement.
 

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I'm suprised about the battle prayers as they are spells. i use the spells on them (namely the ward and re roll wounds) i think 4 is the best i have tried halberds and lance and i think its better to have the 1+ armour save and in my 1000pt list i run 8 of them and i haven't lost yet :D 4 games 4 wins (this is a new army)
 

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has a ca-fading facade
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Some recent experience for me shows that Life is also an excellent lore with gryphs. Regrowing D6+1 wounds of gryphs back (with throne of vines then regrowth) is game-changing. I held up a massive block with three demis all game as they went down to one wound then came back repeatedly. All in all he killed 9 demigrphys and didn't get points for a single one because I flank charged and broke them.
 

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I use a level 4 light now thats carnage :p asf WS10 I10 extra attack their really is no one in the game that could withstand that :D and I think hordes are less and less frequent now people are going more for depth than hordes as most armys in use are the elite ones with generally only 5 wide so the opponent is getting 18 of their 30 possible attacks. so i find when i play my 4 bosted by light very quickly make there way through units so i am very happy to slam them in even without magic they are pretty tough :p and will often carry several rounds of combat
 
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