[Monkeyclops]

Hello Ork Brothers!

I've been on a bit of a hiatus from 40k for the past few months. But the bug is back and my friends and I are likely to start playing again. Wondering if there is anything exciting I've missed from GW? I've heard of a new Nid Dex coming out in January, anything else exciting going on with new releases?

Last I played the IG Dex/Models was the newest release.

EDIT: To much LotRO, there is no 'C' in 'Ork' in the future

 

[==Me==]

Space wolves got re-released, Orks just keep looking worse with every new book.

 

[EmoJosh]

I don't know if they got worse off SW's, I think they got worse off IG. SW's are a pretty favorable matchup for Orks if they're a horde. I never really speak on mech Orks as I consider that a bad build.

Depending on how 'Nids go, Orks may become a second rate army. That would be very unfortunate.

 

[Monkeyclops]

Depending on how 'Nids go, Orks may become a second rate army. That would be very unfortunate.

Yes it would as I sold most off my A+ SoB army to concentrate on my Orks and planned to rebuild that army if/when the Inquisition Codex came out. Oh well, luckily I generally only play with friends and since I know the rules much better than all of them it gives me that extra edge

 

[mynameisgrax]

Allow me to rephrase ==Me=='s statement slightly:

With each new codex release, HORDE Ork armies look worse and worse.

With the new Imperial Guard codex, it's once again possible for IG to simply 'shoot' everything to death long before their opponent reaches them on foot. In competitive settings, it's pretty much speed freaks (backed up by lootas) or nothing.

Now that I think of it, that pretty much goes for every army. If you don't have either transports, outflanking, or deep striking, you can't really win in competitive settings.

I don't think Orks are going to become a 'second rate' army any time soon, not when 2 of the top 5 finalists at the Ard Boyz finals were Ork players (two Imperial Guard and one Eldar were the others). However, as with many armies, there may eventually be only one or two Ork army builds that the neck beards consider to be 'competitive'.

 

[==Me==]

Horde Orks stopped being good when 5th ed came out, I'm talking about the salvageable stuff like Mech Orks and Bikerz

SW do horrible things to Orks. Living Lightning and massed missiles are tailor made to smash up our armor, while everybody getting counter attack and ultragrit helps them nail the lightly armored boyz, Jaws makes Nobs a joke, and the prevalence of their mech leaves Orks almost unable to cope. And we won't even get into Thunderwolves

Did you see those Ork armies at 'Ard Boyz? Jeez, they were terrible. Horde and Trukkspam, facepalm to the max. But I suppose if people keep running poor armies Orks will continue to noobslay like always

 

[mynameisgrax]

I heard the Ork armies that made it to the final 5 of Ard Boyz were mainly Nob lists, and that was from one of the other finalists (the Eldar one).

Jaws doesn't make nobz a joke, although they are a serious problem for nob bikers, but if you put all your faith in a single unit, you're going to have trouble in any case. Personally, I prefer meganobz, so it isn't as much of a problem.

5th edition was the death knell for competitive tankbustas and burnas, but I think horde Orks didn't start their decline until the new Space Marine codex came out, and the new Imperial Guard finished them off.

Still, I think Orks are still more than competitive enough to hold their own, with or without Space Wolves. The armies that truly got taken down several pegs by the new codexes were Tau and Necron (by the new super shooty Imperial Guard), and all the close combat focused Marine chapters, like Blood Angels and Black Templar (by the incredibly vicious Space Wolves).

The Orks are still the most cost effective army in the game. Of course, with the new Tyranid codex, that might change...

 

[==Me==]

It's not just Space Wolves that hurt Orks, 5th edition and the new style of books gave Orks all sorts of problems, but them and IG do an excellent job making the problems Orks have that much more obvious.

The Ork armies Darkwynn (the overall winner) reported were Trukkspam (5 Nob units in Trukk, Ghazzy, Boyz in Trukks) and your generic horde. Both terrible armies, which appear to be a staple for 'Ard Boyz. Massed open-topped AV10, KFF or no, is not lasting at 2500 points, nor will 12 boyz.

Jaws is indicative of the overall increase in utility psychic powers have underwent, and Orks are stuck with no defense against it (other than the business end of a choppa) and our own psyker is, while amusing and fun, inconsistent at best. It's another nail in the coffin of "all your eggs in one basket" type armies, which Orks are infamous for.

The Ork Codex was the death knell of Tankbustas and Burnas, 5th edition just made it worse If Burnaz could get a bosspole, dedicated transport, and +2D6 against vehicles you'd see them a lot more often. Tankbustas need Tank Hunters, a dedicated transport, and something for Glory Hogs (I propose a Ld test to encourage big units, big expensive BS2 single-shot units).

Orks hover in the same limbo that CSM do, they excel at destroying suboptimal, 4th editioney, crappy armies that noobs or people who don't feel like updating run, but when a solid 5th edition (mech typically, but there are alternatives) show up, they have a much tougher road. Orks really suffer against armor, and since it got more prevalent life got harder. For being lauded as a CC army, Boyz get slapped around regularly by stuff like Kroot, Grey Hunters, Assault Squads, Hormagaunts (especially the new ones, 3 attacks w/ re-rolls and 4+ poison is brutal) and suffer more from No Retreat! Nobs are cool, but powerfists see them drop like flies. Orks really lack a proper anvil unit like TH/SS Termies, all they have are hammers and units that specialize in killing basic infantry, but not heavier stuff or tanks.

Necrons got it bad, but Tau are extremely potent when done right. Unfortunately, since their book is so old they have like 1 or 2 builds to use, everything else pretty much sucks.

Cost effective in terms of points or money? Marines have the latter on lock, probably the former too. IG are great as well.

Orks are ==My== favorite army, I love them to death, but it's frustrating to be saddled with a book that was basically outdated before the ink was dry. The worst part is that nobody sees it. Since tournies today are so comp-heavy, all you see are crappy armies and when it comes to poor lists, Orks dominate against them. It's gonna suck for people when the rug gets pulled out from under them, Tyranids may be the ones to do it too

You can make Orks work, just like any other army, but they are really limited. Still a ton of fun to play, though.

 

[mynameisgrax]

Space Marines are cost effective? Perhaps an all scout/land speeder/vindicator army, but they'd have the same problems that IG have, falling apart the second the Orks got within klaw range.

I still think you're oversimplifying, ==Me== and making extreme statements based on personal opinion, rather than actual fact or events.

Now, when the new Ork codex came out, they were considered to be the most broken and powerful army out there, and the 180 boy list was considered all but invincible. Of course 5th edition and the new codexes changed that, but they still regularly place in the top 3 of most of the tournaments I go to, with Space Marines and Imperial Guard being their main competition.

You keep calling the Ork armies that placed in the top 5 of Ard Boyz 'terrible', but you're ignoring the fact that they both PLACED IN THE TOP 5 OF ARD BOYZ. Did any Space Marines or Chaos Marines place in the top 5 of Ard boyz? ^_^

They're obviously very good armies played by very good players. The only people who have the right to say they're 'terrible' are the other 3 people who placed in the top 5, and we're not one of them.

I know several people who went to the finals of Ard Boyz, and they're the best players I know, virtually untouchable by myself or any other players they go against. One of them got 6/6 wins and close to a perfect score in the first two rounds of Ard Boyz. None of them made it anywhere near the top 5 of the finals (although in past years one or two of them took 3rd and 4th place), so the people who placed in the top must have both very good lists and very good players if they can outperform the best players I've ever known, and I play in a very competitive area.

Now, one thing I'll definitely agree with is that Orks have a little trouble at the 2500 point level, especially if they don't concentrate on nobz and Ghazghkull. The sweet spot seems to be between 1500-1850 points. It's enough that they can load a list with cost effective transports and troops without facing too much armor on the other side of the field. Still, several Ork lists obviously made it, so they definitely can work.

Another good point you have is that the Imperial Guard are VERY cost effective. However, they still fold up in close combat relatively easily. Orks are sort of the 'flipside' of the Imperial Guard. They're just as cost effective, but instead of focusing on armor and guns, the Orks focus on assault and speed.

 

[==Me==]

Marines are extremely points efficient: cheap flexible Troops (Tacs in Rhinos), plenty of nasty and cheap firepower (dakka Preds and Dreads), Land Raiders, TH/SS Termies, Sternguard, and a wide variety of viable and unique builds. With the right set up, they can pretty much do anything and do it quite well.

Everything I say is personal opinion, otherwise I wouldn't be saying it

Orks came out in 4th, and turned the game on its head. Why? Well, vehicles were rarely used outside of Mechdar and MechTau since they were overall so fragile, transports sucked, and everybody ran low RoF, low AP weapons to kill marines. 5th showed up and took all that away, turning Orks from hunter to hunted. Light AV, open-topped vehicles, large footslogging assault units, no real way of dealing with AV14, reliance on combat and deathstar units to get the job done, and No Retreat! hurt Orks severely now.

Anybody can criticize a painting, just like anybody can criticize a list. Taking 9 Trukks and hoping 2500 points of anything isn't going to table you is stupid. I didn't go to 'Ard Boyz, I was in Europe at the time, and I'm sure there are plenty of good players who didn't go for whatever reason (nothing going on nearby, travel costs, not enjoying the goofy scenarios and shenanigan-friendly organization). Hell, even the winner himself lucked out by getting 1st turn every game with his alpha strike from hell army and going up against garbage like horde Orks and Trukkspam.

IG do not fear Orks, or at least they shouldn't, since Orks have a hell of time cracking all that AV12 (must pop the transport then squish the guys inside, leaving you in the open to get BBQ'd/Pie'd) and IG have plethoras of flamers/pies, autocannons and meltas (tailor made weapons to destroy hordes, Trukks and Battlewagons/Nobs), and a big stubborn platoon can stop a charging mob in its tracks for a couple turns.

 

[mynameisgrax]

Yeah, I couldn't make it to the second round of Ard Boyz either, because of a trip to Washington DC with my girlfriend, for her birthday. I qualified for the second round though, despite getting STOMPED by a Slaanesh/Khorne Chaos Marine force in game 2 (he went on to the finals).

I think I see where the problem is with our discussion, ==Me==. We definitely have very different personal definitions of 'efficient' and 'terrible'. Neither of us are right or wrong in this, we just seem to be judging the lists/armies in very different ways.

I did a double take when you listed land raiders as 'cost effective', as to me, they're the exact opposite of 'cost effective'. Instead, they're what I call a 'super elite' unit, which is one that attempts to maximize power, and simply overwhelm your opponent with a unit they simply cannot defeat, regardless of the cost. Super elites include nob mobz, assault terminators, close combat focused HQs, bloodthirsters, monoliths, hive tyrants, and the like.

Now, tactical marines aren't super elites, but they still focus a lot of their power and points into relatively small, specialized units. They're versatile, but not cost efficient. In order to be cost efficient, they have to provide the most benefit possible, for the lowest cost. As I mentioned, in my opinion, Scouts, Land Speeders (all types), and Vindicators are really the only Marine units that fill that niche.

Yes, if you approach from a tactical and imaginative standpoint, then a trukk spam list can definitely seem terrible, but I'm speaking purely of their results. There's no way that a 'terrible' list or player just happens to place in both the first and second round, and then go on to reach the top 10% of the finals. Unsportsmanlike, cheesy, and juvenile? Possibly, but that doesn't mean they're bad players, or their list is bad.

I'm sorry you've had bad experiences with Orks against IG. Personally, I tend to win about 2/3 of the time (only counting games with experienced players, not noobs) against any opponent, regardless of whether they have a new codex or not. The only exception is Eldar, which I admittedly have a very difficult time beating with the Orks. Their skimmers are too resilient to be shot down, and too fast to be caught.

 

[Gorfang]

I'm sorry but Ard Boyz results should never be a Litmus Test for competitive armies, as 2500 points is excessive. Part of the strategy of the game is in the army list. With 2500 points you lose out on this as Orks become severely limited due to the FOC. My standard tactics for 2000 points or less simply go out the window as I run out of points and suddenly the units I enjoy taking I can no longer use as they don't use enough points. Instead, I'm stuck with inefficient maxed sized squads, special characters, and nobz upon nobz as that's the way to fill points.

If you must actually take the results seriously, at least understand that dropping 500-1000 points out of those lists creates a very different atmosphere. For instance, if you were to look at the list that won, it has the advantage that given the points available it could squeeze in counters such as inquisitors w/ mystics and hoods & psyker battle squads that might be left on the cutting room floor if points are in issue, but as is spell doom for swaths of units (deep strikers & expensive elite units (cough nob bikers).

 

[==Me==]

Land Raiders are finally good after like 8 years of being terrible, considering how tough AV14 is now and how nasty their cargo can be, they are quite efficient. Assault Termies are too, 200 points for a unit that can effectively stop others many times it size and win is crazy good for the points. Together, 475 poins gets you a tank that is difficult for any army to destroy with a solid array of versatile weapons backed up by 5 of the meanest assault troops in the game.

Tactical Squads are cheap and flexible, definitely efficient. Scouts not so much since they only have 1 role (sniper scout objective holders), BS/WS 3 kills them. Speeders are nice and efficient too. Probably the best bang for buck in the Marine book is the dakka Pred, 85 points for great armor and a nice complement of weapons is too awesome of a buy.

==My== Orks don't struggle against IG, mostly because our local bunch are still playing their 4th edition armies. A proper IG army won't have much problem with 4+ Battlewagons, Lootas, Koptaz, Buggies, and Kannonz. Too much firepower. ==My== IG, on the other hand, are murdering Orks left and right. Sure they can down a Chimera or two, but I've got tons of armor on the board.

 

[Gorfang]

==Me==, I have found that the heavy mechanized IG lists tend to be a matter of whichever side goes first wins. If a Mech ork list (with KFF of course) is able to use its first turn to cover the distance to get in some 2nd turn charges the Guard will have to deal a silly amount of damage in that turn to win the game. If they go first the Orks are all but done as too many vehicles will be torched before the Orks hit combat. With the lack of anything with AV>11 rear guard tanks die fast once you're in close.

For example, last game vs IGuard I had to go up against:
CCS - 3 flamers, HF, Straken in chimera
CCS - 4 meltas in chimera
4x Vets w/ 3 meltas in chimeras
2x Vendettas w/ HBs
3 Hydras
2x Medusa

and was able to table it. Yes I had some solid saves during the first round of shooting, not so much in the 2nd turn but by then it didn't matter. Once I hit combat those vehicles disappear, and the infantry simply have 0 staying power once out of their tanks.

The last game vs mostly AV14 front (AV11 rear) tank Guard was a similar outcome. I don't have much in the way of stopping power at range so it doesn't much matter what the front armor is. If I can go first vs a 100% mech IG force I will most likely win, and vice versa. Silly really.

FWIW, what comprises a 4th ed guard list?

 

[==Me==]

Big difference between Mech Orks and Mech IG is open-topped, lower AV vehicles with no appreciable way to nail tanks at range vs. close-topped, higher AV armor that can nail tanks reliably across the board. All they need to do is keep moving to pretty much negate the effect of your assault and torch you with flamers.

A 4th ed Guard army is one that people ran a year ago and still do. Las/plas, 2 LRBTs, Bassies, very little mech, conscripts, and crap like that.

 

[mynameisgrax]

You're definitely right, ==ME==, about Land Raiders, Assault Terminators, and Tactical Squads being very powerful. I didn't mean to imply that they aren't. They're all indeed very competitive. I'm just saying they're nowhere as cost effective as most Ork units, or Marine Scouts, Land Speeders, and Vindicators.

When I say 'cost effective', what I'm really trying to say is 'disposable'. A highly cost effective force has a lot of redundancy within it, but usually at the expense of overall power and versatility. A Space Marine army can usually deal with any situation with little trouble, whereas an Ork army can have a lot of trouble defeating certain vehicles and infantry squads. On the other hand, a Space Marine Army's strategy usually revolves around one or two very important units in its list, whereas most Ork armies can lose over half their units and still have a good chance of claiming victory.

I'm glad to hear you're doing fine against IG, and hopefully it should continue. I know what you mean by '4th edition lists'. For all those that don't know, 4th edition IG were far less mechanized, and didn't have the ability to combine units, or take multiple tanks in one force org slot. This resulted in little variation between armies and strategies. Before the 5th edition rules, they also tended to always be a gunline army, with a few deep striking suicide squads thrown in. Of course, with 5th edition this isn't an effective strategy anymore, and with the new codex, they can field a lot more squads in chimeras without restrictions, and all as troops (in 4th, veterans were elites, not troops).

I see what you mean, Gorfang, but I've found that the players who are competitive at normal point levels are still competitive at the 2500 point level. I agree that it's a very different type of game, and some armies scale upwards better than others, but I still feel it's a good measure of a player's overall ability.

Yeah, I'm afraid the first turn is once again becoming very important in 40k. I had hoped we'd gotten past that point. As a result, perhaps holding your units in reserve might be a good strategy, if it's that much of a problem.

That leads to an important point, and perhaps one of the reasons that Orks don't seem competitive: they often win, but they rarely win by a lot. I've had plenty of victories with the Orks, far more than I've had with any other army, but I have to admit, many of those victories were marginal ones, where I only won by a very small amount. At a tournament, it's often not enough to win every game, especially if it's a large competition. You have to do the best out of the winners, and that's something that IG and Space Marines do well, but Orks generally do not. We win, but never without cost.

 

[Monkeyclops]

Great info guys, thanks! And its nice to see some things never change

 

[Gorfang]

Oh sorry Grax, I did not mean players can't scale well, I simply meant that some armies don't/scale compared to others. Also =me= I can't say I've seen that particular list since 4th ed. Everyone switched into 5th ed mindset the minute the new book hit I feel. Rarely do I see less than 10 vehicles on the field as guard.

Interesting though that you say that your wins are marginal ones. I have found the opposite to be true: I will either table my opponent or will just have scraps left due to having my onslaught beaten down before it could arrive.

Either way I do not much mind Guard having our number a bit more than average so long as other armies exist out there that can give Guard a solid thrashing, who we in turn can thrash etc rock paper scissors style.

 

[mynameisgrax]

You know, now that I think of it, I tend to be a fairly cautious Ork player. I know that sounds like a contradiction, but my strategy tends to be hedging my bets with inexpensive units, so I'm more likely to win, at the expense of rarely ever thrashing my opponents.

Although this helps me win most games, I have to admit, it has held me back a bit in competitive tournaments. I seem to take 2nd-3rd place or the sportsmanship award fairly often, but I've only taken 1st place with Orks once.

The same goes with Orks for me at Ard boyz. I've competed the last two years and I took 4th place the first year (not qualifying for round 2), and 3rd place this past year (barely qualifying, but couldn't make it). Overall, I seemed to do well, but I just wasn't overwhelming my opponents enough to earn enough points to really shoot ahead of the more aggressive players.

 

[==Me==]

==My== Ork games tend to result in near tablings, regardless of who's in control of the green meanies. Orks have to basically commit everything to get the job done, which they either end up doing exceptionally well or they do it poorly, get stalled and destroyed. Orks are very much a have to win in 1 turn type army.

With regards to cost effective or efficient, it's not just points costs you take into account, but the value you get out of them. Land Raiders cost a lot, but they give you a lot. They basically shift the focus of the entire game just by their existence, which is a huge effect considering it only takes up a relative fraction of your army. You can have cheap, disposable units, pretty much everything in ==My== armies are, but that doesn't mean they can't be resilient or particularly killy, so long as they can do their job without being too reliant on one thing not in ==My== control or have the entire army hinge on them.

I hope I can help ==My== IG playing buds to get better, it's part of the reason I started IG. It'll be nice to introduce some stiff competition locally