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Member
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I was looking through the chaos codex, and something confused me. OK, count them with me, Standard Chaos Space Marine (but also chosen, and all 4 'aspect' marines):

Bolt pistol: ok, 1 arm
Close Combat Weapon: ok, 2 arms... good so far.
Bolter: Whaa? another 2 handed weapon, OK, so: 4 arms then?!

So, basically this is asking what the wargear entries in the Chaos Space Marine is all about. Is it a list of options that he may take? or is it like other codexes, listing what he comes with standard?

Am I just misunderstanding something, or do Chaos Space Marines have this unbelievable extra ability- where they can choose to fire the bolter, or pistol/ccw each turn?

I'm sure you chaos players have already worked this "whaaa?" out, so I'm asking here for the answer... what is up with that?
 

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Nightlord
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I guess it is assumed that they switch weapons really quickly. According to RAW if they fire a weapon they can't charge, though, because they have a bolter.
 

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Formerly BrotherAzriel
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I also noticed this, am i to assume all CSM have an extra attack for a bolt pistol and CCW , even if im useing "bolter" models and also that they all have a bolter even if useing "bolt pistol + Chainsword" models??
 

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Has a monkey!
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Horus: Let the galaxy burn!

*fast forward ten thousand years*

Chaos Marine 1: Dude, I figured out the coolest **** today.

Chaos Marine 2: What's that?

1: I can fit a holster for this bolt pistol and a sheath for this chainsword onto my belt!

2: And you could totally have your bolter on a strap so you could draw the other two weapons while charging!

1: Holy Warp, you're right!

*word spreads across the Legions*

Abbaddon: *facepalm* This is what we learned? After ten thousand years? Ugh...

----------

I think it goes like that...

Seriously, the Wargear restrictions don't apply anymore, because there isn't an Armory. I kind of thought this had been covered... :rofl
 

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Senior Member
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they can choose which weapon to use, either go with the bolter or the CCW and bolt pistol. it's a great thing. my guess is that it's mostly for evening out ATSKNF.
 

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Has a monkey!
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they can choose which weapon to use, either go with the bolter or the CCW and bolt pistol. it's a great thing. my guess is that it's mostly for evening out ATSKNF.
Teh winnar. Good guess.

Though with a Champ and an Icon of Chaos Glory, I like our guys better.
 

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Member
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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
So, is that the answer then? That Chaos Marines get to fire a two handed bolter as they approach, then switch out to dual CCWs for the charge?!

That seems utterly broken, as no one else has this 'swiss armyknife of options' that they can juggle around each turn, which fundamentally changes the way that they perform in battle.

Then check out this fully viable option for the Aspiring Champion:
Twinlinked Bolters, Powerfist, plasma pistol

Does that seem right? Thats awfully close to the gear of Marneus Calgar, the special character SM that goes for 185 points (1 mastercrafted powerfist short), yet its a humble troops choice seargent.

Anyways, I know the snafu where all marines with bolters are assumed to have a ccw of some sort as a default on them, from a combat knife to the heavy stock of the bolter itself, that is not listed in their stat sheet (otherwise what would they attack with? not the bolter, strictly speaking!), and maybe I am hoping that the CCW entry on the Chaos stats was just to recify that snafu for completeness...

..but if that was the case, then the Chaos Marine is strictly said to weild a bolter with one hand, and a bolt pistol in the other.. which is like he has got a free True Grit special rule ability going on, but with a bonus, as True Grit doesnt grant a +1 attacks because the bolter is not a CCW, but the chaos free version of this True Grit is that he does all that true gritty stuff, yet still get an additional attack. Aparently for free. As they cost the same as normal Space Marines, when all is said and done.

See? The more I talk it up, the more broken it seems, isnt it?

Granted all we are actually talking about here gameplay-wise is a free +1 attack, no matter what [even lascannon or not].. but that seems like a pretty awesome bonus for a buff that everyone gets and doesnt cost anyone anything (free terminator honors all around? same end result!).

hehe , now its lts time to laugh at myself a bit, in good humor, after hearing what I'm basically saying: "boohoo! space marines arent the best at everything anymore!! [pout!]" :rofl
 

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Yar indeed,

As pointed out Chaos marines dont have the atsknf so its not all roses, however the new configuration gives them a nice little bite ;)

Maybe pointing out the obvious, but ofcourse Chaos marines may not fire thier bolters then charge into close combat. THAT would be broken ;)

However, afaik, firing pistols once and charging (getting extra attacks for 2 close combat weapons and the charge) does produce 4 attacks per marine for the turn :C

BTW, this extra special true grit you talk about has been affectionatly coined Ultra Grit or Ubah Grit by the chaos community, yes it has been discussed at some length! :p

Moon
 

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Registered
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Maybe pointing out the obvious, but ofcourse Chaos marines may not fire thier bolters then charge into close combat. THAT would be broken
Wait... we're only talking about rapid firing the weapons right? I don't see what they wouldn't be able to fire them once and then charge. Am I missing something here because I'm really tired?
 

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Firefly
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If you fire a rapid-fire weapon at all, you cannot assault. The Chaos marines can fire their boltpistols once and assault.
 

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Ghost of LO
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I think this is one of the upgrades that makes the most sense ever. Why shouldn't a marine hold a side arm, a main weapon, a sword, and 2 types of grenades. It makes perfect sense, especially considering the weapons share ammo and cartage types. People just need to start modeling slings on the bolters, and perhaps a holster for the pistol. Although it is the future, they probably could have worked out some kind of magnetic system. ECT.
 

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The other Kind of Fluff
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A quick summary and clarification:

Basic Chaos Marines include a basic c.c. weapon, bolt pistol, bolter, frak & krak grenades, and power armor (this also goes for Plague & Noise Marines. Berzerkers & T.S. Marines are a little different):

Rules: A chaos marine unit may choose either to fire the bolter or bolt pistol in the chaos player's shooting phase. If the bolt pistol is fired, then the chaos marine unit may assault during the ensuing chaos player's assault phase. If the bolter is fired (or rapid fired), then the unit may not assault. C.c. should be treated just like any other marine wielding a basic c.c. weapon & a bolt pistol.
 

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Senior Member
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However, afaik, firing pistols once and charging (getting extra attacks for 2 close combat weapons and the charge) does produce 4 attacks per marine for the turn :C
Fortunately, the chaos marines aren't that good. They come with 1 attack and get an additional 1 for the close combat weapon. On charge, that means we get 3 attacks/marine.

I don't find this ability broken at all, unlike the dreaded Lash of submission. There's something to focus your anger on.
 

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resident iconoclast
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It's four attacker per marine if you count the pistol shot, which is actually better (in terms of how likely it is to kill something) than a close combat attack.
 

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Fortunately, the chaos marines aren't that good. They come with 1 attack and get an additional 1 for the close combat weapon. On charge, that means we get 3 attacks/marine.
While in combat they would only get three attacks, they do get to shoot those bolt pistols before assaulting, effectively giving them four strength four attacks in one turn.
 

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The other Kind of Fluff
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It's four attacker per marine if you count the pistol shot, which is actually better (in terms of how likely it is to kill something) than a close combat attack.
And this certainly isn't something to overlook. On Berzerkers, that's 5 attacks per model. The bolt pistol shot acts as a 'first strike' attack, which actually makes it better than the charge bonus (save for the champion's power attack).

Necrontyr, I'm asking earnestly, but what do you want from basic infantry? If it's versatility, you won't find a better model than the chaos marine. It does well in every possible scenario, albeit, they aren't the best. The chaos marine is generally regarded as one of the best- if not THE best- basic troop in the game.
 

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Senior Member
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Necrontyr, I'm asking earnestly, but what do you want from basic infantry? If it's versatility, you won't find a better model than the chaos marine. It does well in every possible scenario, albeit, they aren't the best. The chaos marine is generally regarded as one of the best- if not THE best- basic troop in the game.
I'm not really following here. I've never said anything bad about the CSM, I simply corrected what i saw as a misunderstanding of the rules. I believe the CSM troops to be some of the best in the game, and their recent boost made them even better.
And it seems like a mistake to me to count the bolt pistol shot as a CC attack, since if you decide to fire with your bolt pistols, chances are that you will kill enough models to not make it to CC, or to make the enemy flee before you get the chance to enter CC at all. Don't misunderstand me again, please, I'm not saying it's a bad thing to fire your bolt pistols before charging, but it may not always be the best option.
 

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resident iconoclast
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You're definitely right about that, Necrontyr. I was actually just about to post something similar.

Still, it is 4 attacks, even if it isn't 4 close combat attacks.


I do routinely find myself in the position of not being able to 'safely' take pistol shots. The chance of my target breaking and fleeing, or my shots killing the models closest to my unit and preventing them from charging is often too great to allow me to take the shots.


On the other hand, the vast majority of these instances are against Guard and Tau, or Eldar Guardians--weak stuff that I'm going to beat in combat anyway. When you're charging a unit of Firewarriors, it really doesn't matter whether you have three attacks or 'four.' You're going to win resoundingly anyway.

When it matters (i.e. against stuff that actually puts up a fight in combat) you're usually able to take the shots beforehand without running the risk of blowing your charge--and it's against those units that you actually need that extra 'attack.'
 

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The other Kind of Fluff
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Necrontyr, actually, I did misunderstand you. No worries. I also went back an re-read my post, only to find it was very poorly worded- sorry about that ;)
 
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