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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
*not so much of a rant...more of a...minor moan*
So,

I had my very first game with my new Skaven army today- I'd settled on taking a couple of new toys just to test out how effective they are but mainly because I really loved the plague furnace model.

I arranged a game with a good friend of mine "To have some fun", he doesn't consider himself a competitive player and this is what we both fielded;

1000pts Skaven (me)

Characters
Plague Priest, Plague Censor, Furnace
Warlock Engineer, Doom Rocket

Core
30 Clanrats, Shields, Full Command, Warpfire thrower
25 Slaves, Musician

Special
25 Plague Monks, Full command
5 or 6 Poisoned Wind Globadiers
6 or 7 Plague Censor Bearers

I made this list up with no real aim in mind, just wanted to test out some of the units and have a laugh.

His list;

1000pts Dark Elves

sorceress, level 2, 2 powerstones
sorceress, level 2, 2 powerstones
2 units of corsairs (one was 19, one was smaller but more than 15)
chariot
war hydra

Now, my "cheesy unit" he was complaining about- the plague monks+furnace hit his hydra after he managed to get a breath weapon attack off killing about 9 of them, in combat they proceeded to kill his war hydra but in the process lost everything but the furnace... the rest of my army he massacred with Magic.

When I openly asked him did he feel it was a good idea taking that much magic when he knew I'd at best have a couple of level 1s- he told me that was the list he always ran at 1000pts and he was surprised how effective the magic was as usually most people run at least 2+ dispel scrolls.

The thing is, magic has become such a game winner that there are 2 builds out there- magic heavy lists and anti-magic heavy lists. There's nothing more depressing than seeing an opponent put out a special character backed up with 3 level 2s, or 4 vampires and knowing you've got absolutely nothing in the army that can shut them down.

I'm not talking about tournament play, I'm not even talking about competitive play- but do people feel that the average pick up game of Fantasy they play these days they find themselves facing cheesy lists or lists that exploit the rules? In short.. have the one or two tournament players you get in each gaming club and shop around the world forced everyone to start having to match their level of play rather than we just band together and play friendly?

Dont get me wrong, I like tournament play and I like competing at that level- but when you use a brand new army and a good friend sticks something like that across the table from you, I cant help but feel this hobby in general has taken an unpleasent turn the past few years.
 

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My local club ran a campaign. Mainly to promote new players to learn how to play and give them a good taste for it. It was a map type campaign, points agreed between opponents.

I'm a fairly experienced Lizards player. I do normally magic heavy lists (hard to not be magic heavy with a slann) But I do like the Carny old blood. In which case I take 2 priest caddies and that's it.

More to the point.

In 1000 points I had

Scar veteran
Hide of the cold one
Great weapon

Lvl 1 Priest
2 x scrolls

2 x 15 saurus blocks with spears and full command

2 x 10 skink skirmishers

5 x Cold one Cavalry

His list was;

2 x lvl 2 Sorceress with a power stone each. one with a dagger.

20 warriors block with command

10 corsairs
command

10 executioners

5 x Cold one knights

War hydra

Playing against that much magic + a hydra in 1000 points was ridiculous. Luckily I'm a better player than he was. Hydra charged my cold ones, kept fleeing.

Eventually my cold ones managed to get his hydra useless in a corner of the table and his executioners stuck in a forest.

A destroyed everything else and won, taking a lot of casualties myself.

In my playing group in general no one does the cheesy thing. We don't play much fantasy anymore but we don't do it in 40k.

There was recently some issues in a 2v2 but it was really due to match up. Me and another player both have themed mech armies. His is eldar, mine is dark eldar. Throw as together on a team against Guardsmen and foot slogging CSM and watch as the CSM get killed midfield while the guard vehicles are constantly shaken/stunned/destroyed.

It really comes down to the type of person you're playing against I think. You could always try teaching him a lesson by doing it to him, but you'll be stooping to his level.

That's my 2 cents,

Glavas
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I'm having a rematch with him soon... I'm going to take a nice friendly list again. I've decided that I'd prefer to win the odd game and know its down to me being a better player than spamming a particular combination and knowing I win because I play Daemons...lol
 

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I don't think it is killing the hobby. A lot of it has to do with the group you play with. Down at the local GW I was surprised by how many people play uncompetitive list, or they try and be cheesy and take overpriced over powered units that are nearly as effective as core choices. Having not played in awhile but reading quite a bit on the forum I found it odd to go in the store and watch two footslogging space marine armies fighting each other, I was saying in my mind "don't you go on the Librarium? everyone knows the new edition is all about Mech"

So I would say that in these parts around the local store people are not playing ultra competitive armies.
 

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I hate Ultramarines
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Definition of Cheese: A list that when usedm beats yours, no matter how bad you are at the game
 

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Definition of Cheese: A list that when usedm beats yours, no matter how bad you are at the game
Definition of cheese: A list that lets a player beat any non cheesy list, no matter how bad that player is.

I hope you're not implying that either of us are bad.

You think a hydra at 1000 points is fine? How would you play your game against it?

WITHOUT knowing the hydra would be there?

Glavas
 

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I like the fact that with your opp's army you can tell that when they made their list they sat it all up and then took what was remaining of their points in order to get there core units lol.

And honestly, the store that I have always played in has always had people bringing tournament style armies to the table for either game, and in most situations they would make sure to try to use their rules to the best of their ability, however I would assume this is because the ones of us who have played there for a long time were used to having tournaments every other week. However when some one new came to the store most people people would normally change their lists in order to me more friendly, I think it really just (as said before) boils down to your gaming club.

Now I would cut your friend some slack since I know that when me and my best friend take FRIENDLY armies, it generally ends in a board wipe on either side by about turn 3-4. So perhaps you have simply shown to your friend that you are simply competitive as well and he brought an army to combat that.
 

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tourneys let the real players shine. the ones who want to fight against players who they feel can provide a challenge. it helps to seperate the good from the average. tournaments propvide more goods than negatives. just ahve a look in any other hobby/sport.
thanks
antique_nova
 

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Hi all.
IF a game is developed to be used for ballanced competative play, tournaments and narrative driven play ALL enhance the gameing experiance.

Unfortunatly GW PLC uses the games simply as a marketing aid.

WH and 40k are not balanced enough to allow all playstyles to be used in conjunction.

So it fall on the players to play with like minded individuals.
And as most tournament player are of a similar mind set ..I can not see a real problem.
(Other than lackluster game support from GW PLC.)
 

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I think it is more that the game has evolved. Used to be all about characters. Then they tried to change the emphasis to core units. Now they are pushing magic. So there is the natural confusion about what is a fair list now. It should work itself out over time.

You really have to adjust your thinking to magic lists now as that is the new norm. So I don't think the lists are bad per se, that is just the way the game has moved now.

Daemons are an aberation (they can't make a fair list).

SirKently
 

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I think I know what the op means. I've never played games that regularly and nor do my opponents. We always took units that we liked the look of. Result was armies that probably weren't very refined or powerful but fluffy, like an ig army that refused to use any leman russ' and more than one chimera because it was a backwater PDF. Even in 5th we only took what we liked the look of.

Problem is, as we read more and more posts by pro LO players we realise what we 'should' be doing. Once one person makes a really focused list because someone else has told them how to do it, once one sm player goes out and buys a bag load of rhinos, everyone's got to do it to stand a chance.

It's probably good that we are getting 'better', its just now I don't use units I think look cool because everyone tells me how bad they are. I'd have worked it out in the end, probably, but I miss the days when I didn't need a separate army case just to carry the transports. The days when I lived under the naive that all units were balanced and every army build, as long as it was the same number of points stood an even chance of winning. More to the point, when you are inexperienced every build does stand the same chance, its your own mistakes which decide who wins because everyones army is unbalanced.

Same as when I used to play DoW. Everyone used to have fun building scouts and guardians, having little skirmishes, slowly building up armies and having a great time. Then someone worked out you could, if you ignored everything else, get 2 wraith lords in under three minuets. Everyone died, players either started rushing wraith or they lost. The game became repetitive unless you played against the computer, because no one had told him that what he did was wrong ;). Difference there is Relic patched the game and it became balanced again, GW don't/can't do that sort of thing. Mind you, we only started spamminging landspeeders.

I suppose it comes down to the fact knowing good competitive players stops you being ignorant . Ignorance uses pariahs and they worked. Ignorance only had to paint one rhino. Ignorance has never heard of lash. Ignorance can be an DH player without landaiders. Ignorance's army matched the fluff. Ignorance is, or rather was bliss. Can I take the blue pill now Mr Morpheus?
 

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i played dow and i always felt the small skirmishes weren't exciting, well not as exciting as orbing your opponent's base inside 6 mins and 30 seconds and then getting your termiantor spam readying inside 10 minutes in qs mode :). good times. About time that they ephesised on core units now.
thanks
antique_nova
 

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I like both types of playing: competitive and Friendly. I actually like to combine the two and try to make fluffy armies that don't suck. Like my Orks, I play Deff Skulls and have lots of lootas, but also a looted wagon, looted trukk and looted deff kopta (from a land speeder).

But now a days I am leaning more toward competitive, I have been trying to get into more tournaments but only got into one this year, I guess i will have to try harder next year. Any way the reason why is because with the 3 people i regularly game with, Me and my brother always win. Now it doesn't sound bad winning and everything, but when you do it for 5 years in a row it gets sad and boring quick. My 2 friends that I always demolish in both 40k and Fantasy, finally started to change their 40k armies, yeah just one of their armies. My one friend plays CSM w/o any lashes (I told him if he did I would run nob bikers and I'm a better player and he wouldn't know how to use them) and he looks forward to playing me cause, not to toot my own horn but I'm the better player/painter in my group, he really wants to beat me. Well he has not yet and every time he loses he gets made and starts righting up a new list. Lame and awkward.

So I guess friendly games are good if you both trade off wins and what not, but if your friendly list is destroying their friendly list and they don't want to change it (like my friends, and one of them even says what's the point to playing fantasy cause he knows I will win, like wow change your army!!) then you will eventually turn to competitive gaming. Plus then you can see how good you actually are.

Wow that was a lot
 

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Well, I think the blame is more or less to shift to people who play the game and go out of their way to win. I personally hate people who refused to have fun in any-way or shape unless they win (Or at least I find a common trait amongst such people.) Also, I find when they loose; the scream about how broken or over powered the army they are fighting.

For example, we have a Tau player in our 40k game group, he only enjoys the game when he wins, if not, he constantly complains about how he had no chance of winning against said over broken army. Every list he plays that is over 700 pts, he always gets three hammerheads with Rail guns and the very cheapest in troops and HQ. The more points he gets to use in the army list he just adds jump suits and adds transports to his troops. He says armies like Nercons are far too over powered (although in this edition they kinda suck.)


But when we play for fun, our guard player brings out a few squads of Orgyn, our Ork player uses his Storm Boys and so on and so forth. My main and most used army in 40k is Chaos Daemons, when I am feeling for just fun, I put away my Fate Weaver and crushers and whip out Daemonettes, Blood Letters and the Blue Scribes. When we play these games, I find players who are in it just to win it will use the same list the use to win the most hard core of games they play.

So, our group started up fantasy, and as the cheep chaos fan I was, I wanted to play Daemons of Chaos because A ) Daemons are my most favored army for theme, looks and story and B ) they use the same models as in 40k. So, I looked into my daemon book, was amazed at how much better the fluff was in this one then in 40k.

As far as I thought about game play, I expected them to be the same as in 40k, a cool army that is not nearly as played as other armies with some cool advantages, but has amazing disadvantages. When I looked at the rules, I was amazed at how great they where compared to 40k. I didn’t know much about the other armies as far as stats go, but I thought daemons where a strong army. Then I looked at the other books and realized that they where the ruling force. They Melee bettered and could stop any magic-heavy list in its tracks. So then I tried to think about how I could make a fun daemon list so that when I set my army down on the board, that the other player doesn’t flip out and gets upset for fielding such a list (As CSM players get when using Lash Princes with Oblits or Vins, or a Necron Player with three monoliths, or a fantasy player with the dark elves set up that started this thread.)

I wanted to make a Tzeentch/ Slannesh army that’s tactics revolve around a Keeper of Secrets, the Blue Scribes and a Herald of Tzeentch on a chariot as the army standard. I have not herd of a list like this, but I feel that if I do that people are still going to cry and get angry at me for playing ‘the point and click army of fantasy.'
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
I think some of you guys in this thread so far have hit the nail on the head.

Basically, this is my main gripe- the majority of gamers I feel these days are playing to win, first and most importantly its about winning.

So, you're in GW or with your friends and you have this beautiful "saga of the wolf" army that you've crafted a back story for, have painted individual clan markings on each shoulder pad, know every single one of your models names= go up against a vendetta rush or the multiple hammerhead tank army list and suddenly start looking at "Rhino rush" tactica on websites.

You get exploited by the geeky kid in the corner of the shop no-one likes playing, but feel angry so start collecting Daemons or whatever- suddenly the geeky kids who no one likes playing are in the majority.

Dont get me wrong, the guy I played a game with is a decent opponent he games fairly and doesn't get into endless rules arguments. I like going out for a drink with him, but I feel like when I write up my fun list that I really love using... there is just no point playing him. I dont think there's any skill difference between us in how we play, it's just his armies are; "Daemons, Dark Elves, Chaos Space Marines (lash/flamer army)" while I currently play "Skaven, Guard (vostroyon city fighting list without mass chim/valk), Chaos Mortals.

Ultimately the system in place we have at the moment allows the kids we all hate to play to win the game and we've all fallen into the trap of becoming them.
 

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I think

You know I think that GTs and other things are an important aspect of the hobby. Sure there are some players who bring cheese lists every time they play but to complain about that only shows that you too really care about winning. Why not think to yourself...

"Oh great, nasty Nurgle Demons, I'm gonna die. Ah well why don't I see how many I can take down with me? Hmm, maybe I can take out that Greater Daemon this time around!"

In fact when you play a cheese list, you can't lose. If your opponent wins then he or she is a loser for thrashing you with a cheesy list. If you win, then you become the local legendary underdog champion of doom. What's to complain about?

Ultimately you need to play with the army you want to play with. Everyone tells me that my units of 48 Dwarf Hammerers is too big and unwieldy, but you know what? I like it. Every miniature is an OOP classic and I love the look on my opponent's faces when I drop such a big block of troops in the middle of the table.

Warhammer is a game. If you expect other people to play nice just so you can win without building a brutal list then more fool you I suppose. If you want that sort of friendly game then thrash out some more house rules. No specials, no magic items worth more than 25 points, no level 3 or 4 wizards, whatever. No one will stop you doing that and most players love a unique challenge. Just don't expect people to lay down and die so that you can win.
 

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I've been away from the forum for a while, and now look what happens. Someone's back to complaining about tournament gamers.
I've always been on the side that wargaming really IS about winning. Sure, it's good to have a fun time while doing it, and to enjoy the time that you spend gaming against your friends, but if it's not about winning, then what IS it about?
Is it about collecting? Go buy some baseball cards or play a TCG. Is it about the painting and modeling? Why not be more 'mainstream' and build model cars/planes or a train diorama. The game has RULES involved so that you can pit your collection against somebody else so that you can see who WINS. So play like you want to win, or stop moaning when you play for any lesser reason and then lose.

I play in tournament scenes, but also am one of the top 'recruiters' and sportsmen in my area. I've brought tons of people into the game by learning how to provide a 'fun', 'fair', and humble gaming experience for their first few games. Trust me- it's NOT fun to handicap my army just so somebody thinks that their footslogging space marines have a chance. I'd much rather throw down a mechanized army, or drag out my Vampire Counts or High Elves and see how many enemy models I can remove from the field by turn6.

I think that the real gripe stems from the fact that there is no real way to balance the system. Some armies are indeed better than others (Anything vs. TombKings, or Daemons vs. Anything), and some armies are so limited that there's only one way to build an effective list (Magic-wielding VC or WoC, Skimmer Rush DE).
Furthermore, I hate watching everybody in the store play the standard 'kill everything' missions. Why not roll for a new type of mission? Why not add a few thematic objectives to your games of fantasy? Trust me; it makes a difference. I've actually found that my WHFB Empire army is AMAZING at take-and-hold style missions!

People usually complain whenever they start an army and find that suddenly they're getting kicked around by someone who started a better army. It's a sad fact, but you've got two options:
sell your army/start a new one
stop whining and make due

If you enjoy the "painting and modeling and fluff" end of the game as much as you say you do, then it shouldn't be too bothersome that you aren't winning. If you want to, do what I did: I love fluff, so I've started writing for others. Some people just love to paint, so they start a little side-job that they get PAID to do. I do conversions for my gaming group, just because I love making new things. None of that has to do with my actual gaming.
 

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I only recently started playing Warhammer (40k) but I can see what you mean.

When I started I boutght AoBR and built my space marines army from there, buying what I liked the look of to see whether it worked. My two friends also did similar things, one buying the orks off me and another starting necrons.

We went to GW to try our army and when we got a game we did alright as most of our shop wasn't that good. However I then played one of the adults there and he destroyed me, I think it was with a Terminator Heavy armor. Because of this I found myself buying more terminators and at one point I had 15 termies to 20 space marines.

My two friends were a bit more lucky. My friend who plays Orks managed to kile the look of good units and still have enough troops as he was playing Orks.
My other friend is the Geeky Kid in the corner and he quickly worked out the keys to a good necron army.
From then on I've only won one or two battles against them when we play once a week/fortnight and I've been playing for a year/year and a half.

The difference is is my Ork friends trys out new units on me and doesn't run the most competitive army ever even though it is a good list.
My necron friend just plays lots of warrior with lord and res orb, with monolith and C'tan in bigger points.

So I've had to go on librarium to see how to make my Ultramarines a little more competitive because I rarely win our friendlies. This doesn;t matter to me much but there is a big difference between sometimes winning and rarely winning.

What I'm trying to say is that Competitive armies are not fair, especialy against beginners.
And as has been said, If one person goes competitive then all the group do.

You could blame this on tournaments because that is normally why people upgrade their army but it is not always the case.

Like my necron friend, some people just exploit the rules.

I'll finish this massive post with a relevant qoute:

"Never argue with an idiot. They'll just knock you down to their level and then beat you with experience."
 

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I agree with Sarathai. Unfortunately warhammer is very difficult to balance - there are just too many variables in the game to adequately make every army 'balanced'.

And this is a game you play to win. If you're not trying it's a bit insulting to your opponent (if they're reasonably experienced) if you don't. I always play at 100% - if I play at 80% (or whatever) and lose, have I actually been fair to my opponent?
 
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