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LO Oldie
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This thread is to discuss how GW is redoing space marines, and the question is, do you like it? With the Blood Angel and Dark Angel codicies we can just about be certain that the generic Space Marine codex will be done the same way. I personally don't like the new style for SM, options seem very limited, I especially don't like how squads are either 5, or 10 man, and point values seem to be very screwy at times...

...however, the new style is still much better than the 3rd edition SM codex :rofl
 

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Overall I'm quite pleased. I wasn't at the start, but after seeing the leaked 5th edition rules, I can see what GW is onto. Clearly they've been planning this since Codex: Dark Angels if not before...
 

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Ghost of LO
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Well I hate the way the DAs work. I can tolerate the BAs only because I've wanted to take an army of assault marines for a very long time. So far, with the current rules 4th edition, eldar are nearly broken, while DAs are a first turn dependent army or are horribly under powered, whilest BAs are nearly broken. Really it seems to me GW really is off its rocker.

The only thing I like to see, is that they seam to be updating things more frequinty, that I like. Although so far, I don't like any of the updates.

But there is one last hope for 40k: DE. Ohh please don't mess up DE Gw..
 

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LO Zealot
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The BA came for most of people just wonderfully... Attacking forces are just mean and good! ;Y For some people DA are not so good, but unfortunately until the next codex they have the new one!

I don't like the lack of flexibility in the squads. Only 5 or 10 doesn't fill me or won't fit the Wolves if they will make it like that... I don't know though. Still expecting...

On the other hand some things have been reduced to point cost while others raised... I see more and more SM players losing the last period though...
 

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Son of LO
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Not really. From the varied responses I gather it's an opinion thing; people who were happy with the previous situation, like myself, dislike the change because it's upsetting. People who are new or who never really like floating squad numbers are okay with it.

Frankly I see very few positive changes and a whole lot of negative ones...price hikes, fixed squads, and with this rumoured 5th edition, 2-attack power fists and pillbox Predators. :(
 

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I'll be sad to see the trait system go. Which it will I'm guessing especially with the change in chaos (loss of name chapters and their abilities).
Maybe they could add something along the lines of doctrines or some such.
 

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Son of LO
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Yeah. There's also the trait system. That stuff was fun, it was seriously an innovation. I can't believe they're dropping it.

I actually don't believe it. My default policy is unconvinced pessimism. "It can't possibly be this bad."
 

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I like the change. Once I gave a IC everything he was able to bear- a master chaplain with jump pack, crux, thunder hammer, adamatiummantle and boltpistol for nearly 200 points and this for two times, 6 man troops with lascannons, 10 man assault troops x2, and so on, the typical cheese army. Nowadays we have to think a bit different. The IC aren't able to wipe out half armies on their own, powerplay with 6 wounds lascas etc. are gone. It's not this "hey, i can just win with a mega hyper assault squads with cappie and thousands assault cannos" anymore. Those who are screaming that they are loosing everything aren't able to win games through a fair army composition with a fair army. Every assh*le wiped out everything with a "standart" space marine army. I think this is not.. well... fun?! Now the armies are more balanced and marines are not so broken anymore (all ahead the ICs). Its more important that the WHOLE army works together (and there are a few nice combinations you can find at the codex, yo just have to think different nowadays), and not that ACs and chappies with jump pack troops work for themself without any abilities of the player. For example at the Dark Angels Codex- Belial with Thunderhammer, 5 Termis with LCs, apothecary and standartbearer. Hey, at assault we have 25 LC and 5 thunderhammer attacks, and we can stand against a lot of fire power without loosing a man! Of for example the destructor. 95 points! AV13, and he pumps out 8, with storm bolter 10 shots per round, 3 tanks of these and thats A LOT of fire power against infanterie (don't concentrate too much on wiping out tanks, they don't do so much damage as you think (but keep your expensive troops away from blast weapons, use melta speeders to destruckt them or attack bikes). There are a lot of different options, just go for it! When I first saw the DA codex i was crying. No swords of secrets anymore, 10 man troops or 5, and so on and so on. Now I play a triple wing force (deathwing, ravenwing, ironwing [old epic fluff, means 3 destructors]) and I'm highly pleased with it. You still can win games easily if you are playing the right units who work together, but it is not the dumb SM stuff as before (and belive me, its a lot of fun NOT to win a game in the secónd turn like with Lysanderwing and his assault cannon army).
 

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I second everything you said Norngahl.
When I saw the DA dex for the first time, I said that they have some potential, but all my friends saw only their limitations. Now I play DA, I've started them to show everybody that they can win, I started them couse I like to have a challenge.
And I must admit that they are the worst marines. But they are one of the best balanced armies out there. They are a true legion of legends.

If the new SM codex will look similar, then thats just good :)
 

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As long as I can take a 10 man tactical squad with 2 plasma guns (or 2 assault weapons) I'll be happy enough.
I also like having furious charge on my Assault Squads as the extra damage they do means they are well worth taking (again 10 man squad)
I'd like to see the new rules allow you to fire your pistol in combat instead of the +1 atk. Its more realistic I think.
As much as I love powerfists, I guess they are spammed too much. I usually have 4-5 in my army, one of which is my Chaplains. He does't use it regularly as his Crozius is generally enough, but when he does, people go squish, just like they should!

They should get rid of rending on the Asscannon too. It never made much sense that this anti infantry gun could chew through tanks.
Also I don't want my marines to get ultra grit. Let Chaos have that. My guys will make do with a bolter and the odd kitchen knife to deal with the enemy.
I like the idea of my marines shooting their opponents, not charging at every opportunity.
 

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Ender of Threads
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Not a big fan here - 5 or 10 man squads seems dumb to me... This is the most elite, most flexible and nimble fighting force the Imperium fields, and they're restricted to rigid, unwieldy squad size and special weapons rules? Not to mention, it's not like the Guard, where there's 10 million poor chumps out there if you just happen to need to shoehorn a few more into a squad - if you've only got 8 Marines, you've only got 8 Marines.

But whatever. If they really need these drastic measures to get rid of powergaming jerks, so be it - I can deal with it.

The codex format? Not digging it. I like the overall look of it, but they've put too much focus on making it look good and be all artsy, and not nearly enough focus on making the damned thing practical to play games with!

Traits are going away?? Dude, not cool. I better not get stuck playing my Raven Guard as vanilla Marines...

Nerfed Powerfists kinda suck, but they aren't such a big deal to me - I like Power weapons and Lightning claws for everything except big 'Nids, Wraithlords and the like, anyways.

And I can see forcing a Russ or Whirlwind to sit still in order to fire the big gun... But a Predator with HB sponsons should be able to fire on the move. It just works so naturally in practice, it's like the tank was built to do that! (realistically speaking, it is!!) I really hope they don't clamp down on moving and shooting S5 weaponry for vehicles - nothing carries S4 guns in the first place!!!

In summary: No, not liking the way things are starting to look. Not at all. I'm with ze_poodle here - until I see it happen, it can't possibly be all that bad...
(**crosses fingers**)
 

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Can you remind me what is probably going to happen to the PowerFirsts?
Powerfist will have the same limitation as the lightning claw - the only way to get an extra attack with it is to take two power fists or t-hammer and powerfist).

Which reminds me - the t-hammer will have the same restriction.

As for the changes - overall I am very pleased with them. But with anything, there are small issues I don't care about. But that is to be expected.
 

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Ghost of LO
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Frankly I see very few positive changes and a whole lot of negative ones...price hikes, fixed squads, and with this rumoured 5th edition, 2-attack power fists and pillbox Predators. :(
You see, when a fluff master like ze_poodle and a power gamer, like myself, agree so completely on a subject such as this one, GW should take notice.
 

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Blood Axe
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To be fair, was there any reason to why Lightning claws always had to be twinned, whereas every other weapon in the game didn't to get that +1? Now it's just sort of evened the playing field (and made hidden sergeants/champions/nobz less destructive than they used to be, which I guess I'm okay with). Thing is, back in 2nd edition all Space Marine squads were in blocks of 10, which could be broken up (I remember my Space Wolf codex being 300 points for 10 marines), so I guess we're just going retro. Like fashion, I guess Warhammer is cyclical.

My recommendation would be to not freak out until you have something tangible in your hands, and then remember that in 12 months none of this will matter as it'll just be the norm. After all, do you really want me to bring up what life was like in 2nd ed, or 3rd ed? No, that was different, just like anything new will be different. Learn to float instead of drown.
 

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Well combat squads might have a use. If the rumors are true, (which they probably aren't) and only troop choices can score, I can see combat squads as a great way to get scoring units.
Take 4 ten man squads and split them. Now you have 8 five man squads to hold objectives and such. That is if a split squad counts as two seprate untis for scoring.
Sure it isn't the best stratagey, but hey I'm trying to find a use for the combat squad rule.
 

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And the answer is...
a RESOUNDING....

NONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONO!

Let me illustrate my points, please.

1: On Nerfed Powerfists. This is Just straight up, F'n Ridiculous. NO SPACE MARINE IN HISTORY went Powerfist Boxing. Other than Calgar, and his count as master crafted. To explain this away? Duh... "With a pistol one can be more agile and quick acting that with an unwiedly 2 handed Gun. I.E. the additional Attack.)

2: PLEASE come on guys. If the point was to 'Fix the Problems with the 40k System." WHERE oh WHERE does the powerfist really fall in? Where does ANYTHING SM really fall in the list of issues.

3: THe bulk of Warhammer players are NOT competition players. (I am but I am the minority), So 'Everything CAN win" isn't the point. FUN is the point. And hte more rules/restrictions in place the less opportunity for creativity or innovation.

4: YOU WILL see, just like with Mech Eldar now, the SAME lists recycled by EVERY OTHER player.

5: The game is losing any focus on background and fluff in favor of becoming a boardgame with the same homogenous rules and choices for everything. NOT what makes it great.

6: Gav Thorpe sucks at 40k. So do the other head guys. Tell me this doesn't feel like "Man, I got my ass kicked by that army. This and This and This should happen to it". Seems like that to me ALOT.

7: "My Space Marine chapter has been on a crusade for five hundred years and they are depleted, so none of my squads are at full strength because of the loss-What? Why? What od you MEAN I can't do that? Are you SERIOUS?" Yeah, the 5-10 thing.

In closing:

4th Edition seemed like it was about refinement and innovation. 5th seems like it is about basically, Table Top Gaming For Dummies. I can concur that, well...sure. The Drawbacks to take certain Traits COULD have been steeper to make it more restrictive as to what style of army can play it. So fix THAT. Don't get RID of it.

Assault Cannons have Rending? OMG. Is that REALLY so bad? Serioualy, you look at EVERY other army int he game and they get some sort of squad/gun hat owns ass on a infantryman. And as far as it chewing up armor? Ok, so an M-16 Can't take out a vehicle. Know what? A mini-Gun can. And if that Mini gun's bullets EXPLODED on impact/insertion. Well guess what, It CAN take out armor.

Combat squads were a good idea implemented poorly. Know how you do it?

"If you take a Tactical Squad at full Ten Man strength you have the option to break this squad u p into five man fire teams." Bam. Done.

Losing hte Wargear/Armory. Lame,stupid, crap. I use a Librarian to lead my Army. Now I can't get him an invulnerable save? UNLESS he's in termy armor, in which case he HAS to join a termy squad and when he wins an assault CAN'T Sweeping advance. Crap.

If they wantt o make librarians a 'Support' HQ? Give thems ome better 'Supportive" abilities.


Anyway, my vote is No.
 
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