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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Does the soul sucker ability work even if it is in close combat?

Soul Sucker: At the start of each shooting phase, every enemy within 6" rolls a Ld on 3d6. If they fail, the unit suffers
a wound with no AS allowed for each point failed by.
 

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Sounds like it does to me
 

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Does the soul sucker ability work even if it is in close combat?

Soul Sucker: At the start of each shooting phase, every enemy within 6" rolls a Ld on 3d6. If they fail, the unit suffers
a wound with no AS allowed for each point failed by.
Yes, it's not a shooting attack and nothing in the Doom's entry mentions close combat.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Then DSing in a spore this creature its from the good the best and from the best the finest, does not matter if it is in close combat and it affects all units including the ones who are in close combat just need to know if it affects to the units inside a vehicle.
 

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LO's Shadow Captain
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Then DSing in a spore this creature its from the good the best and from the best the finest, does not matter if it is in close combat and it affects all units including the ones who are in close combat just need to know if it affects to the units inside a vehicle.
I would say no to that. Units inside a vehicle are not technically on the tabletop; they are inside the vehicle, so can't be targeted by any sort of attack, not even one that's not a technical shooting attack.



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...just need to know if it affects to the units inside a vehicle.
You can measure a distance to an embarked unit (see page 66) by measuring to the transport's hull.

Talk to your opponent before the game. Generally things in a vehicle are considered to be suspended in limbo 'elsewhere' and GW's past rulings on the subject have been along the lines of "nuh-uh, that'll totally bork things up".
 

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resident iconoclast
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It's pretty clear that units inside transports can be affected by the Doom. Such a unit is within 6" of the Doom as long as the transport is within 6" of the Doom, and that's the only criteria required for the Doom to affect it. There are no rules which contradict this conclusion.
 

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LO's Shadow Captain
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It's pretty clear that units inside transports can be affected by the Doom. Such a unit is within 6" of the Doom as long as the transport is within 6" of the Doom, and that's the only criteria required for the Doom to affect it. There are no rules which contradict this conclusion.
Do you have a reference to rules or a link to a FAQ that supports that?



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resident iconoclast
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The rule on page 66, under the "Embarking" heading: "If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except for its shooting), this range is measured to or from the vehicle's hull."

So, the Mawloc is on the table. We need to know which units are within 6" of it. That means we need to know the range from it to each unit, to the extent that we need to know whether each unit is within 6" of the Doom. Thus, we measure from it to each transport with an embarked unit (or measure enough to see whether each of those transports are within 6" of the Doom). If such a transport is within 6" of the Doom, the unit inside the transport is also within 6" of the Doom. Since the Doom affects all enemy units within 6" of itself, it affects enemy units within transports which are within 6" of itself.

Barring any other rules which contradict this (and I have yet to see any) this rule is sufficient to the allow the Doom's rule to affect embarked units. It's really rather straight-forward.


edit:
Or, to put it in other words, no rules prohibit the Doom's ability from working on embarked units. The only criteria for being affected is that a unit be an enemy unit and within 6" of the Doom. Units in transports which are within 6" of the Doom are also within 6" of the Doom--that is pretty much exactly what the rule on page 66 says. Thus enemy units which are in transports which are within 6" of the Doom are affected by the Doom.
 

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Bugs'r us!
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I agree with you on this one. Though it makes for a second question on this matter. If you can measure to embarked units, how do vehicles react to this. There's a crew in there, if the passengers are affected, wouldn't the crew also die? If no then it would kind of be a contradiction with the targeting of passengers part. If yes, this unit is the most powerful tank hunter in our codex...
 

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resident iconoclast
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I'm pretty sure the rule specifies that it doesn't work on vehicle units, which means it doesn't work on the crew of vehicles, either. I agree that, from a fluff perspective, this is a little silly, but from a rules perspective it's pretty straightforward, and doesn't really contradict the notion that it works on embarked passengers at all.
 

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Left of West, using that logic, what's preventing me from assaulting an embarked unit by measuring distance to the hull of their transport? Unlike shooting, assault has no LOS requirement, and there is no rule explicitly stating an embarked unit cannot be assaulted.
 

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resident iconoclast
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That's a very good question, and there are two answers:

First, a successful assault requires that an assaulting model move into base contact with an enemy model in the unit it was trying to charge. While an assaulting model could reduce the distance between the unit and itself to exactly zero inches by basing the transport, that doesn't actually get it into base contact with any of the models in the unit. Being zero inches away from something and being in base contact are not the same thing.

The second point ties in to the first, and that is that a unit is not the same thing as a model. As I said, while an assaulting model could reduce the distance between itself and an embarked unit to zero inches by basing the transport, the distance between the unit and a model is not necessarily the same as the distance between any of the models in that unit and that model. Even if reducing the distance between two models to zero meant that they were in base contact (as I said above, it does not), reducing the distance between an assaulting model and a unit to zero doesn't actually mean that the assaulting model has reduced the distance between itself and any of the models in that unit to zero. This is because the unit is, as I said, not the same thing as any of its models or even all of its models--it is distinct entity, and the rule for measuring distance to an embarked unit only allows for measuring to the unit--not to any of the models in the unit.

So, there you go. The Doom works on embarked units and they can't be charged (and they can't be shot, even with no-LOS weapons, because weapons, too, have to have range to a mode in the unit--not just the unit itself.)

No worries!
 

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I'm pretty sure the rule specifies that it doesn't work on vehicle units, which means it doesn't work on the crew of vehicles, either. I agree that, from a fluff perspective, this is a little silly, but from a rules perspective it's pretty straightforward, and doesn't really contradict the notion that it works on embarked passengers at all.
Don't really care about fluff anyways:p We all know it's not gonna happen that we don't get to wreck tanks with an ability like that.
Not fluff wise it wouldn't be a contradiction no, that why we're loving proper rules. But fluff wise it does. Good to see all the perspectives on this!
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Sorry double post, the forum do not works very fine at the moment.
 

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The thing is though, embarked units aren't within 6" of the Doom - they're in the nebulous 'ether' zone of the transport - not on the table. The FAQ, and page 66, only applies to them shooting out of their transport, not anyone trying to shoot (or use a psychic power) in. The only comparisons we have a psychic powers like Hammer of the Witches - and nothing official I've found implies that it can affect models inside a transport. The Adepticon FAQ says it (HotW) can, but while reliable, it isn't official. While page 66 does say you measure effects concerning the embarked unit to the hull of the vehicle, due to the fact that 40k is a permissive ruleset, I'd be inclined to say that requires the ability to explicitly effect an embarked unit, before it can.


Fluffwise, this is easily justifiable too - the hull of the transport provides shielding effects, at least with Imperial armies, as they typically incorporate anti-psychic wards or at least blessings from tech-priests, as well as votive icons.
 

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While page 66 does say you measure effects concerning the embarked unit to the hull of the vehicle, due to the fact that 40k is a permissive ruleset, I'd be inclined to say that requires the ability to explicitly effect an embarked unit, before it can.
I'd say that page 66 and the Doom's ability sufficiently grant that permission. The only prohibition to affecting the unit inside (besides the inability to target for shooting) is that psychic powers may not do this, as per the BRB FAQ. The Doom's ability in question is not a psychic power.

You don't need permission on top already existing permission.
 

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Lets start this at the beginning

Step 1: Transport with embarked unit moves to within 6" of the Doom.
- For simplicities sake, we'll assume the transport moves within range than the Doom does whatever it needs to do.

Step 2: Doom's ability take effect on units within 6"
- Exactly as stated in it's rules

Step 3: Doom's ability affects the transport.
- The transport is within 6", on the table.

Step 4: Does the Doom's ability affect the unit in the transport?
- Is the unit in the transport within 6" of the Doom? No, it is in fact in the transport.
- Does the Doom's ability explicitly affect units inside a transport? No.

If his ability explicitly affected units within a transport that is within range of him, then yes, you'd use page 66. Otherwise it's irrelevant. Strictly by raw you could interpret it to affect the unit... but it's in the same grey area as pyschic powers, and we know how that ended up.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 · (Edited)
Stradius did you read the F.A.Q.??

Can a model use a psychic power that is not a
Psychic Shooting Attack if it is embarked in a
transport vehicle?
A. Yes. If the power requires line of sight, this is
still worked out from the vehicle’s fire points
(this will count as one model shooting through
that fire point if the power is used in the
Shooting phase).
If the psychic power does not require line of sight
and has a range or an area of effect that is
normally measured from the model using it, these
are measured from the vehicle’s hull, as
explained in the Embarking section on page 66.

(Directly from the F.A.Q.)
Now apply this F.A.Q. in the other way, if a unit inside a vehicle can cast a psychic power that is not a shooting attack and affect units outside it, this should work too on the other way.

Now my question is, can a unit take cover savers from the doom of malan'tais psychic power?

Q. Do psychic shooting attacks grant cover saves?
A. Yes, as long as they cause wounds. Cover saves
are taken against wounds caused by psychic
shooting attacks, not against any other ‘weirder’
effects of the psychic power.

It's not a psychic attack so decide.
 
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