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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I got an idea for an interesting use for firedragons. These are described as a sort of jack-in-the-box tank-popping unit and I thought that if used differently they can throw your opponent right off. Imagine for a second: 6 FD with exarch who wields the Dragonsbreath and has crackshot. This makes for a S5, autohit, reroll wounds, and AP3 weapon backed by 5 melta shots. Your opponent thinks of this unit as a danger to his tanks and may make a mistake with his infantry. I'm pretty sure most 10-man Space-marine squads will die to this even in cover unless deployed in a funny way. If any are left the Serpent can add some Shuri Cannon fire. Anybody tried this? Thoughts?
 

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I have tried the Fire Dragon flamer bit... and it's just not that effective.

I'd rather use storm guardians w/ 2x flamer and a warlock with destructor .. you get more destruction (and a scoring unit!)
 

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First off I would like to say that the dragons breath flamer is AP 4. It is essentially a heavy flamer.

And yes some people use this tactic. Not really to fool your opponent..but to give the FD more uses than 1. As I see it most people are successful when the squad is large. And it is mainly a backup use for the squad not a sole purpose. THe main purpose is still tank hunting or termy hunting. Its in a pinch they have a heavy flamer with auto hits and reroll failed to wound.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
hmm, I was misremembering then. The AP4 instead of 3 does tone it down a bit. In that case is will be about average in 80% of situations and whenever the melta's are at their their best the flamer will me not very effective. Damn.
 

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When I field multiple large fire dragon squads I will try to squeeze in one or two exarchs with the DBF and crack shot. As eric said it gives the dragons a bit more bite against hordes, something that dragons are normally wasted on. I would only really recommend this if your list is light on horde stopping power or you have a few extra points at the end of building a list.
 

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As Eldar have really hard time killing low-armoured hordes in Cover and KHAINE THEY DO LACK FLAMERS, having 5 meltas able to blast anything but monolith in a squad already I see no reason not to include Exarch with Heavy Flamer and crack Shot, with which he can quite easily burn down a few MEQs as well. It's all about points - either cheap XX points worth pure anti-tank, or XX points more per Enemy-is-always-doomed Heavy Flammer carrier. That'sl ess then XX per upgrading War Walker Shuriken Cannons to Scatter Lasers and this just bring a few shots more. Noooo, flamer is way better, especially as it makes unit usable and not only any threat at all, but big threat.

Unless have two units of Storm Guardian Crispers AND do lack points, a must-have.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 · (Edited)
Thanks for the suggestions, but Dire I suggest you remove specific points costs from your post. It's against the rules and no one wants LO shut down by GW. I've been guilty of this in the past so just edit your post before some moderator finds it.

In response to your point, would it be better against Tyranids (the only army where Dragons don't hunt tanks and need to maximise wounds on big beasties) to have the Pike or flamer. The pike has worked ok for me but didn't really pay for itself since I was getting close to the beast abyway and a regular Dragon is almost as good. +1 to ballistic skill isn't worth the points. The flamer on the other hand isn't as strong so against Carnies, Trygons, Termigons, etc it'll be a waste of time. The rest of the army will be eating Blasestorm and Storm Guardian flamers anyway and the Dragons almost always have better things to do than Guants in cover. Remember also that MC's don't get cover from area terrain and so Dragons will almost always have a clear shot.
 

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he didnt break the rules of posting.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
As long as the specific points costs are not associated with the upgrade they represent its ok? Thats a fine line to tread considering we are talking about a particular upgrade for a "sergeant" for a particular squad. Hey, if Dire found a loophole to GW's regime then good on him. I'll know for next time.
 

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The reason it doesnt break the rules is because it doesnt divide up the costs and only posts total costs, which are valid.
 

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In response to your point, would it be better against Tyranids (the only army where Dragons don't hunt tanks and need to maximise wounds on big beasties) to have the Pike or flamer. The pike has worked ok for me but didn't really pay for itself since I was getting close to the beast abyway and a regular Dragon is almost as good. +1 to ballistic skill isn't worth the points. The flamer on the other hand isn't as strong so against Carnies, Trygons, Termigons, etc it'll be a waste of time. The rest of the army will be eating Blasestorm and Storm Guardian flamers anyway and the Dragons almost always have better things to do than Guants in cover. Remember also that MC's don't get cover from area terrain and so Dragons will almost always have a clear shot.
MC's don't need cover from terrain. They can easily achieve it by other means (Few+Guards... gain cover from Gaunts. Give Cover to MC's. Etc...).
Alas, you seem to misunderstand their proper use. 12 points are worth forcing opponent to keep loose formation (or risk taking one savable wound on MC and get some little fellas burned to their deaths). 12 points are worth being able to face yet another Genestealer unit. They are worth not being useless when MC's are popping your vehicles relatively safely from afar while little ones block any reliable path (withouth 24" Tank Shock which does not allow you to deploy Dragons and is way too suicidal for tank itself). They are needed when you have to face another Tervigon-spawned unit holding objective during last turn, while all your other units are engaged.

On the other hand, 2/3 per melta hit * 5/6 per malta wound on T6 with Doom doesn't seem to be way better then Shurikannon/Scatter Laser with same Doom. While Heavy Flamer is far better at bringing down T3 or 4 or even 5, yes 5 - in cover. Even for Flaming Tervigons.

And sorry, I personally use Dragons against Warrior-sized bugs, wish you luck with big fells and tell me how it went. Wish you never come across Alpha Warrior+Genestealers max-sized army where you'd find your Dragons useless... ;)
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
I see your point. It does increase the utility of the Dragons. I guess the consensus is that while not being a rediculus weapon, the Dragonsbreath adds utility to the Fire Dragons unit and allows them so deal with some situations better. My last question is: In those situations in which is saves your Dragons, is crack-shot important. I'm thinking about whether the hordes you use the heavy flamer are weak enough for it not to matter.
 

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well because you create so many wounds, even when they do have saves you still get a hand full of them plus you smoke a bunch from the melta guns. instead of just the 1 ud get from the exarch having a melta gun. Dont updrade to the flamer unless you have a large squad. if its like 5 or 6 strong, dont upgrade it.
 

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Pfff... Thy answer is dissapointing, Eric. :p

Better to have Heavy Flamer versus Space Marines then not to have versus Orks.

Besides, if you want to utilise maximum melta-effectiveness against, let's say, Obliterators, not to have few of them take HF wounds which they easily save and others vapourise taking 2 or 3 meltas, you don't need more Dragons, just don't shoot your flamer. I don't remember whether in this edition some wepaons still can be not fired at all, but even if this game reached absurd level where you have to use them all, you can just let some melta-gunners stand before Exarch so that he can't find an angle not to cover his Troops & Enemy ,so he can't shoot at all.

That said, those 17 points are, in my humble opinion, best spent 20 points in the army, save perhaps Doom and likewise.
 

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all shooting is simultaneous, so before he removed the models from melta guns the flamer template would be placed down with them all still there.

And I believe you can shoot through your own models in your unit. Just not your own other units. Why would you NOT want him shooting anyway? on the off chance you roll some misses and a couple ones and then you leave 1-2 standing.. better to have him take the saves over not taking any at all
 

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You misunderstood me, I'm afraid. Or perhaps I was unable to explain? Nevermind.

I checked and you indeed can say: "he's not shooting'. Even if it was not possible, no - you can't shoot your flamer over your own models from the same squad. Explained, right?

I don't want him to shoot to maximise AP1 -instakilling stuff to maximise enemy losses. Warrior, obliterators, Nob Bikers... likewise. To kill dudes, not only to wound some with Flamer and receive charge.
And, if I really need one melta to compensate the one I lost because of Exarch Flamer upgrade, then I take it. 16 more points. Total 33 points that from their regular role make them no less effective but enable them to be used properly versus hordes.

Explained. Hope you see my point now.

One more time: It is better to have Heavy Flamer against Marines then not to have one against Orks.
 

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I get it now! lol.

Are you sure you cant use the flamer over your units int he same squad?

I guess i was unsure.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Its true, you must place the template in such a way that none of your troops are hit. Other squads are included in this. I think Ork Burna's (I'm not sure if they still have Burna Boyz) should have a special rule called "Everyone to the BBQ" or something that lets them hit whoever. Makes sense that Ork Pyromaniacs would care very little for a bit of friendly burnin.
 

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I know that you cant hit any of your own models. But then it says in the shooting section that units in your own squad shooting do not block LoS or grant cover saves to opponenets, trying to suggest that in a battle the troops would take up optimal positions for firing and would not choose a position behind another squad member.
 

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Don't worry, if Dragons block path, Exarch can't shoot. But he can just decide not to, so the problem does not exist at all.
 
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