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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
HQ:
seer council including 1) Farseer (fortune, guide, singing spear, spirit stones, jetbike)
2) 5 warlocks (5 jetbikes, 5 singing spears, 1x embolden, 1x enchance, 3x destructor)

Troops:
9 guardian jetbikes + 3 shuriken cannons
9 guardian jetbikes + 3 shuriken cannons
6 guardian jetbikes + 2 shuriken cannons

Fast attack
2 shining spears + exarch (star lance)

Heavy support
Falcon (holo field, eldar missile launcher)
Fire prism (holo field)

total = 1498

the main idea is to be faster than the enemy so i can run, shoot and (thanks to jetbike rule) run again. my fire prism, falcon and shining spears will take care of tanks and heavy infantry while my jetbikes and council kill the infantry.
 

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OK, this is quite a good list as I don't normally like Jetbikes but a whole army of them... interesting.

My only major criticism of this list is the Falcon. For the same amount of points or even less you get a Fire Prism, simple as that. A Fire Prism will make your other Fire Prism three times as effective for only twice the points - if you think about it, you get an extra AP on the dispersed shots, giving you a S6 AP3 Large Blast which will decimate MEQs, you could also have 2 S5 AP4 Large Blasts that will decimate GEQs, or you could have 2 Small Blasts with S9 AP2 for killing Termies or you could have a S10 AP1 Twin-linked Small Blast to destroy vehicles. One Fire Prism is mediocre. Two is incredible.

Other than that, no complaints about the list - it's pretty good.

DiW
 

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i like the jetbike idea. it seems fun. i am a new player but i have to agree with DiW. Ditch the falcon and get another prism and get rid of the missle launcher and see if you can fit something else on your prisms like maybe stones. But other wise i like it
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
ok my new list is:

HQ:
seer council including 1) Farseer (fortune, guide, singing spear, spirit stones, jetbike)
2) 5 warlocks (5 jetbikes, 5 singing spears, 1x embolden, 1x enchance, 3x destructor)

Troops:
6 guardian jetbikes + 2 shuriken cannons + warlock + embolden + singing spear
6 guardian jetbikes + 2 shuriken cannons + warlock + embolden + singing spear
6 guardian jetbikes + 2 shuriken cannons

Fast attack
2 shining spears + exarch (star lance)

Heavy support
Fire prism (holo field)
Fire prism (holo field)
2 Heavy weapon platforms (shadow weaver)

total = 1502

i think this list will do some good versus tau and other fast moving army's
 

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Shining Spears suck so much... I'd reccomend exchanging them in favour of 5 Warp Spiders with Exarch and dual Spinner (and there are some points left). Or even better Warlock for those Jetbikes + more Warlockes for council. And council should really drop spears, they're meant to kill in CC.

I'd also change platforms for War Walkers if you really think you need 3 HS. But I think that with points from them and Shiny's and spears you could as well afford new naked Seer with Fortune. He'd not only increase killingness of Council (and make failing Ld impossible, believe me, it happens with runes and Embolden, especially when you're facing other Eldar) but possibly increase survivability of regular Jetbikes.

Ahhh, I didn't see your Farseer who's included so far has Guide. Drop it in favour of Doom - all those twin-linked Shuriken Catapults are going to make good use of it.
 

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Shining Spears are fine. You have plenty of anti-infantry fire power here, and Shining Spears make for a good tank busting unit with a Star Lance. The Shadow Weavers are a strange idea, since they'll lag behind the rest of your army, and they can't even capture table objectives since they're a Heavy Support choice. I think dropping the Weavers, drop Guide in favour of Doom (Doom+Destructor = death) and drop the Spears on the Seer Council. Try to get another Warlock with a Spear with your Jetbikes and Embolden, which you should have enough for by dropping the Shadow Weavers and the Spears. Finally see if you can fit Withdraw with the Shining Spears for when they do need to bail your Seer Council out or something.
 

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Shining Spears are fine. You have plenty of anti-infantry fire power here, and Shining Spears make for a good tank busting unit with a Star Lance.
As every unit tough as three Space Marines and worth more than 100 points.
Sorry Dragannia, but spears are biggest waste of points there. Especially as they have to reach enemy armour. Not that it's not very propobale. It's ismply impossible.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
ok thanks again for replies

so... if i drop the shining spears and the shadow weavers (cause they are not fast enough i think) i could get a unit of warp spiders, a few vypers or maybe an other tank like thing and add a warlock to the last squad of jetbikes.

what should i take?
 

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Another tank, hands down. I'd take another backup prism, but only with stones. If you need extra points for that last warlock still, then downgrade the holo-fields on the prisms to stones as well.
 

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Shining spears are not a waste of points at all. They may not fit into this list especially well, but make no mistake they certainly have a place in the army. An Autarch with spears is one of the most deadly units out there. Granted they are quite expensive point wise, but how else are you going to stop a good nidzilla list? I like to run spears in every list over 1500 pts for their singular ability to kill whatever they hit. I use em to clean up marines of all shapes and sizes, especially those stupid nurgle marines w/ Typhus. The str 8 hit is an insta gib for him and almost all of the other marine special characters. Anything that can reliably kill the chaplain and a full squad of termies in one hit from 18" away is not a waste of point in the slightest, esepcially after wrecking their land raider... Personally I view the shinning spears as particularly useful for popping and assaulting the contents of rhinos. What other unit aside from the seer council is good for pop 'n' stomp? Maybe harlies, but they'll have a hard time closing the range very well, and to make it work well costs about the same.

You won't get an argument out of me as to wether or not they are hard to use, because to get them to work well takes some very serious strategy, but when they do work well I have seen them kill more than triple their points back.
 

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I dedicate this post to mistig and Farts.

Shining spears are not a waste of points at all. They may not fit into this list especially well, but make no mistake they certainly have a place in the army.
Wow. As I recall, few topics in main Eldar subforum below I have placed full Shining Spears tactica. And I don't use them after 10+ battles. But well, ok. I'm waiting for enlightment.

An Autarch with spears is one of the most deadly units out there.
For this points you can get full units of Harlequins... not to mention other CC specialists. That are a lot tougher. You know? Neeeext!

Granted they are quite expensive point wise, but how else are you going to stop a good nidzilla list?
With my tanks they cannot chase down, with my Avathar they cannot face in combat, with my Dragons easily incinerating them, with massed shurikens causing with Doom a lot of wounds on T7 as well as Harlequins who can beat them easily. Forget Starcannons, Scatter Laser whipping, Pulse Lasers and Prisms. I usually have not enough opponents on table to use them. Should I right you a proper list?
And you know that those 17 attacks make you either not kill a Carnifex and get killed by it or kill a Carnifex, consolidate D6 from combat and get charged by Gaunts/Genestealers/Warriors, who simply eat you before you can properly react? And you know that such unit with Autarch is more expensive than CC full loadout Carnifex?
And that any good Tyranid player surrounds his Fexes with smaller creatures so that you can't charge with your ridiculously large Jetbike bases?
And you won't propobaly kill T7 5 wounded monster even if you charged it?

No?

Petty...

I like to run spears in every list over 1500 pts for their singular ability to kill whatever they hit.
Assault Terminators, Tzeench Terminators, Slaanesh Daemon Princes, any unit in Land Raider, Land Raider itself, any Walker with AV12, Genestealers, large unit of Gaunts (especially charging ones), charging fex, things you can't hunt down, Nob Bikers, large mob of Guardsmen full of Power Weapons, anything in cover as after your Autarch stirkes, your unit is wiped because of I1. And the list is propobaly never-ending.

I use em to clean up marines of all shapes and sizes, especially those stupid nurgle marines w/ Typhus. The str 8 hit is an insta gib for him and almost all of the other marine special characters.
Banshees, Harlies. Combined fire. Stronger, faster, equal points number. And why are they better? Cause you can't take them down with bolter salvo. And taking down Shining Spears with bolter salvo is pretty easy.

Anything that can reliably kill the chaplain and a full squad of termies in one hit from 18" away is not a waste of point in the slightest, esepcially after wrecking their land raider...
Of course not. The only problem is that you CAN'T kill whole unit of termies (a bit of Mathhammer? 3+ Invul? You forgot anything? Woooho?) and Shining Spears as well CAN'T destroy Land Raider. Only glances from Exarch (if you are lucky... S8 on moving vehicle) and a single Haywire. Yeeaaaaaah! Great Land Raider killas frekas! Let me tell you something: both Redeemer and Crusader disintegrate Spears before they get in concact. With a slight contempt. And maybe a bit of dissapointment as it was too easy. Especially if you charged it adn did nothing. You know there are larger chances that you gonna do nothing than that you gonna do anything?

And with Exarch equipped with Fusion gun it ismply increases their Fire-Magnet-o-meter score.

Personally I view the shinning spears as particularly useful for popping and assaulting the contents of rhinos.
Great. How? With single melta? You know that melta versus Rhino with Smokes has a bit less than 1/4 chances of destroying a Rhino? And if you think that those S6 shots can do anything without particular luck, then oh well...
But I'll tell you one thing, but don't it anyone else. After you Destroy Rhino, they simply deploy within 2" from directly other side than this from which you were shooting and you have absolutely no chances of charging lest you were in contact with this vehicle.

What other unit aside from the seer council is good for pop 'n' stomp?
None, as this is weak tactic, especially in case of Eldar specialists, where units should be mixing their abilities. When I wanna Rhino destroyed, a use full loadout S6 + Pulse Laser Falcon to obliterate it and then I prepare cautious attack not to lose any unit because of my over-enthusiasm. Maybe that was a mistake.
And in fact, Banshees, Harlies, Scorps and Council are better in combat, and avengers are more survivable. And all of them but Council are cheaper.

Maybe harlies, but they'll have a hard time closing the range very well, and to make it work well costs about the same.
Serpent/Falcon for closing in on enemy. But they are counter-assault unit. They work that way that enemy closes on them and then they charge. Not the other side.

You won't get an argument out of me
Of that I am somhow sure... :p

as to wether or not they are hard to use, because to get them to work well takes some very serious strategy,
-Farethuir, hide! There's building ahead!
-I've sighted some Marines, Exarch!
-Oh well... We'll just hide, wait a turn and then charge them.
-Right. Oh f**k, it's 5 edition! There's True Los!
-No problem mate, we gonna get cover.
-Against Flamer and 9 boltguns?
-Errr...
-Serving with you was honour exaaaaayayahah!...

but when they do work well I have seen them kill more than triple their points back.
Over 300 points? You mean 900? Well, not that I believe you, but your opponents should be real idiots to let you manage that with 8 sv 3+ wounds. Not that there were plasmas... flamers... bolters... heavy flamers... plasma cannons... missiles... heavy flamers... Land Speeders with any of these... any combat unit (when they get charged, they're pretty screwed, so if enemy ismply hold his counter-assault unit, you get nothing) and so on.

Don't get me wrong, it's nothing personal. I'm not doing this whole job to make you stop using it. Bu you're recommending particulary weak unit over better options. That's why I'm exposing weaknesses in your strategy.

With all due respect
Dire

P.S. PM me those sophisticated strategies, I wanna see it, :p

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now, as we're back to armylist I'd either recommend third prisms or even better, more bikes or Warp Spiders + Warlock for last Jetbike unit. And that would a strong list mate.

Again, we could discuss what is better - Embolden or Destrcutor - but that is a matter of serious argument and they are not as strong against all opponents so it depends on who are you facing. And the only viable option for you would be checking both in battle and picking the better.

Of course you can try those Spears as well, just make sure your opponents is aware of this unit's possibilities and it's fragileness so that you don't earn single battle try that might make you think them better than in reality. You can just try them - they don't make you auto-lose, it's a big points sink. Play battle with such... difficulties and see it yourself. :p
 

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Wow. As I recall, few topics in main Eldar subforum below I have placed full Shining Spears tactica. And I don't use them after 10+ battles. But well, ok. I'm waiting for enlightment.
As you have formed your opinion from your own playstyle and experience, I don't think others experiences with them is going to change what you think. And 10+ battles is hardly a large number of games to base anything off of. Solid tournament Eldar armies take time to learn before someone can start winning with them. Let alone when using finesse units such as Shining Spears.


For this points you can get full units of Harlequins... not to mention other CC specialists. That are a lot tougher. You know? Neeeext!
True you can get other CC specialists, but this army list IS titled "Jetbike List". So I think Spears fit in it nicely. I would recommend running a full 5 man squad for survivability though.


With my tanks they cannot chase down, with my Avathar they cannot face in combat, with my Dragons easily incinerating them, with massed shurikens causing with Doom a lot of wounds on T7 as well as Harlequins who can beat them easily. Forget Starcannons, Scatter Laser whipping, Pulse Lasers and Prisms. I usually have not enough opponents on table to use them. Should I right you a proper list?
Spears aren't meant to bring down tanks. Use a Bike Council for that. Also, a full 5 man squad of Spears CAN bring down an Avatar. If supported properly, which means he needs a wound or two first. Few, if any Eldar units work well individually. Shining Spears are no different.

And you know that those 17 attacks make you either not kill a Carnifex and get killed by it or kill a Carnifex, consolidate D6 from combat and get charged by Gaunts/Genestealers/Warriors, who simply eat you before you can properly react? And you know that such unit with Autarch is more expensive than CC full loadout Carnifex?
And that any good Tyranid player surrounds his Fexes with smaller creatures so that you can't charge with your ridiculously large Jetbike bases?
And you won't propobaly kill T7 5 wounded monster even if you charged it?

No?
Doom that T7 5 wounded monster and then tell me if a 5 man Spears squad can kill it. Also, you don't hit the middle of your opponents line. you hit the flank. Hit and fade. Thats what jetbikes do.

Assault Terminators, Tzeench Terminators, Slaanesh Daemon Princes, any unit in Land Raider, Land Raider itself, any Walker with AV12, Genestealers, large unit of Gaunts (especially charging ones), charging fex, things you can't hunt down, Nob Bikers, large mob of Guardsmen full of Power Weapons, anything in cover as after your Autarch stirkes, your unit is wiped because of I1. And the list is propobaly never-ending.
Charging anthing in cover will mean losses to you. A number of the things on this list are things that fall under the "shoot it down" or "ignore it" columns as far as tactics. What WOULD you charge into CC against Assault Terminators? At least Spears have the speed to keep away from most of these things.


Banshees, Harlies. Combined fire. Stronger, faster, equal points number. And why are they better? Cause you can't take them down with bolter salvo. And taking down Shining Spears with bolter salvo is pretty easy.
Excuse me. Banshees get cut up like paper dolls if exposed to bolter fire. At least Spears have the T4 3+ armor.

Of course not. The only problem is that you CAN'T kill whole unit of termies (a bit of Mathhammer? 3+ Invul? You forgot anything? Woooho?) and Shining Spears as well CAN'T destroy Land Raider. Only glances from Exarch (if you are lucky... S8 on moving vehicle) and a single Haywire. Yeeaaaaaah! Great Land Raider killas frekas! Let me tell you something: both Redeemer and Crusader disintegrate Spears before they get in concact. With a slight contempt. And maybe a bit of dissapointment as it was too easy. Especially if you charged it adn did nothing. You know there are larger chances that you gonna do nothing than that you gonna do anything?
I agree with you here, but you don't need to get an attitude because others don't. Everyone is allowed their own opinion. Especially if they have formed it from their own experiences. Maybe the dice gods like him better than you?


And with Exarch equipped with Fusion gun it ismply increases their Fire-Magnet-o-meter score.
Spears wiht an Autarch is already high on the list. This isn't going to increase the incoming fire by much.


None, as this is weak tactic, especially in case of Eldar specialists, where units should be mixing their abilities. When I wanna Rhino destroyed, a use full loadout S6 + Pulse Laser Falcon to obliterate it and then I prepare cautious attack not to lose any unit because of my over-enthusiasm. Maybe that was a mistake.
And in fact, Banshees, Harlies, Scorps and Council are better in combat, and avengers are more survivable. And all of them but Council are cheaper.
By all rights and purposes, you Falcon has BS 3, which means it probably has LESS of a chance to pop a Rhino that a Spears Squad with Exarch and Star Lance. Who all have BS 4. Still pop'n'stomps can be risky no matter what. It's better to send Biker Councils in to "pop", and then Spears to "stomp".


Serpent/Falcon for closing in on enemy. But they are counter-assault unit. They work that way that enemy closes on them and then they charge. Not the other side.
Harlies can be good for charging the flank elements in an enemy force as well. But then again, Eldar are NOT meant for 'straight down the middle" attacks. We are not Orkz.



Of that I am somhow sure... :p
Your use of constructive criticism is astounding.


-Farethuir, hide! There's building ahead!
-I've sighted some Marines, Exarch!
-Oh well... We'll just hide, wait a turn and then charge them.
-Right. Oh f**k, it's 5 edition! There's True Los!
-No problem mate, we gonna get cover.
-Against Flamer and 9 boltguns?
-Errr...
-Serving with you was honour exaaaaayayahah!...
That flamer should never touch a Spears squad before they hit it. we DO have 18" charge range.


Over 300 points? You mean 900? Well, not that I believe you, but your opponents should be real idiots to let you manage that with 8 sv 3+ wounds. Not that there were plasmas... flamers... bolters... heavy flamers... plasma cannons... missiles... heavy flamers... Land Speeders with any of these... any combat unit (when they get charged, they're pretty screwed, so if enemy ismply hold his counter-assault unit, you get nothing) and so on.
Okay now. He didn't say he was using JUST a Spears squad against an entire opposing army. Flamers should never be an issue as Eldar Jetbikes can move... a lot. If your Spears get caught by flamers, then something is wrong. Often in Jetbike heavy armies, a Spears squad will do the majority of the killing, while the Guardians and such support them in whatever fashion they can. So, with support, I can see a spears squad bringing down tripple their points.

Handling counter CC units, can be a problem. But Spears are a finesse unit, in a finesse army, and in this case, being used in a finesse list. To me it sounds like he likes a challenge. If he wanted to play an easy army, he probably would be playing SMurfs instead. I strongly believe that, if all you want to do is win by any means neccessary, then Eldar is not the army for you.


Don't get me wrong, it's nothing personal. I'm not doing this whole job to make you stop using it. Bu you're recommending particulary weak unit over better options. That's why I'm exposing weaknesses in your strategy.

With all due respect
Dire

P.S. PM me those sophisticated strategies, I wanna see it, :p
I don't think I heard any respect in your post. A lot of sarcasm and negative criticism maybe, but not really any repsect. Also, he basing is advice upon his own experiences, not yours. And in the case of a jetbike list, spears are a good option, because jetbike lists are hard to play anyhow.


Now, as we're back to armylist I'd either recommend third prisms or even better, more bikes or Warp Spiders + Warlock for last Jetbike unit. And that would a strong list mate.

Again, we could discuss what is better - Embolden or Destrcutor - but that is a matter of serious argument and they are not as strong against all opponents so it depends on who are you facing. And the only viable option for you would be checking both in battle and picking the better.

Of course you can try those Spears as well, just make sure your opponents is aware of this unit's possibilities and it's fragileness so that you don't earn single battle try that might make you think them better than in reality. You can just try them - they don't make you auto-lose, it's a big points sink. Play battle with such... difficulties and see it yourself. :p
I agree with your options here if Spears weren't taken. But be careful with the tanks, because a deepstriking or flanking enemy CC unit will rip them apart.

Embolden seems to be the general concensus for Jetbike Warlocks lately. It will help keep your bikes in the battle longer, which is good condsidering the lower number of models per squad.

As for Spears, they look amazing on the table, fit well with a jetbike list, and after some practice, can be fun unit to play with. Anyone with experience know what Spears are capable of without you pointing out their strengths and flaws to everyone. If they underestimate them, then that is your opponents own fault.

Should you decide to tell your opponent to "Kill these guys first or they'll destroy you", one of two things will happen. One, they will throw everything at them, in which case you got what you asked for. Or two, they will think your trying to pull a fast one and ignore them, letting you have a field day murdering his forces.:dance:
 
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Today I'm too tired to list it all, I'll edit it tommorrow. For now I'll show you one thing to which EVERYTHING I have said directs and is the most important thing and they thing you've missed.

5*2=10

1/3 dead fro msaves.

10*3=30

It takes 30 hits to kill them. With half squad dead, another can't do pretty anything.

Not to mention plasmas and other weapons listed.

And forget all those transporters due to which you can't hurt anyone.

Not funny? Or?

I'll see to continuing our argumentation tommorrow. :p
 

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To mistiq, yeah i think that you'd be better served by adding a fire prism. The spears will have a very hard time pulling their weight in a list this size. You're list will struggle a great deal initially and the fire prisms will pick up the slack for the guardian jet bikes inability to kill very much. The option of adding another doomseer isn't that bad of an idea, or you can change things up and get some fire dragons for the falcon.

To Dire:
I think that you've hit your argument on the head. You expect your spears to get shot. That's where you and i differ. I try very hard to keep them from getting shot. Typically I run a formation of two WS's and two falcons with the spears in the middle. This works remarkably well when it comes to denying line of sight. Everything flat outs in the opening move and the jet bikes get a fortune from the farseer in a falcon or WS. The whole army moves to the weakest flank on the opponents table. The next turn I pop out and bladestorm/transport pop/assault with everything, the bikes still getting fortuned. Turn three reload fall back or star engine screen as appropriate. At this point i'll use a foot slog seer council fortuned and jet the spears away to remove their line of sight or depending on whats available assault again. It works beautifully. If I don't get first turn I hide my stuff as best i can in the cover as far away as i can get it and hope for the best to start the process as soon as possible.

Yeah, I mean 900 points. In one game they killed a dread, ten man stern guard, chaplain with his lighting clawed homies, a ten man tact unit and a crusader land raider. I think that you are forgetting that the exarch has a lance weapon. All of the models in that unit have lance weapons, plus with a melta shot there is a very real chance of killing a land raider. Obviously they don't perform quite that well every game, and I had some good rolls. But still, that's a lot of killing.

darquewing +1.

The whole premise behind my army is that nothing goes by itself. The spears survive simply because there are more pressing threats to deal with. A seer council, fire prisms, transport'd banshees, transport'd fire dragons. When all of this stuff hits at once its money. I put the spears where I need to make absolutely certain that the target dies.

Sadly I had a whole bunch of math hammer stuff typed out and then my stupid laptop died so that will have to wait for me to get back from studying. But real life beckons.

Again the most ironic part about this, is the lead off to my previous comment was They may not fit into this list especially well. I don't think that he would be well served by including them but i don't think that they are a waste of points at all. Especially for larger battles where you can expect to see high powered high save infantry.

What's interesting to me is that there isn't the same criticism for the jet council. This unit has nearly identical stat lines but the council costs a great deal more. True, they land strength 9 against vehicles which is great, but the autarch gets a BS 6 melta shot the exarch gets a BS 5 bright lance shot. Not to mention they have the same armor save. I run fortune right along side with my spears so now a jet council and spear unit is starting to feel very similar. The biggest exception I see for the council though, is that there aren't any power weapons in the lot. This is what made me get spears in the first place. The council gets tarred by anything with feel no pain. ANYTHING. The spears rip right through it. The council has a hard time with anything with a high save, spears rip right through it. I don't think that I'll be able to convince anyone away from their preconcieved notions about their utility, but in my experience they have been an extremely valuable assest. They are the scalpel of the eldar army.
 

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To Dire:
I think that you've hit your argument on the head. You expect your spears to get shot. That's where you and i differ. I try very hard to keep them from getting shot.
So did I. And then 5 edition came. And True LoS. And they got screwed first three battles I used tem. And it's a bit tricky not to engage whole army in babysitting them. Oh well.

Typically I run a formation of two WS's and two falcons with the spears in the middle. This works remarkably well when it comes to denying line of sight.
Idea itself is nice, but our tanks' so-called wings do not block LoS. Their higher hull parts are not enouh in pitched battle or DoW. In spearhead it depends.
Not to mention such things as blast weapons which you simply make more effective by using this formation.

Everything flat outs in the opening move
Provided you have first turn.

and the jet bikes get a fortune from the farseer in a falcon or WS.
Provided you have first turn. And I really think Farseer has better thing to Fortune.

The whole army moves to the weakest flank on the opponents table.
Classic, nothing I may add, tactic's strong point.

The next turn I pop out and bladestorm/transport pop/assault with everything, the bikes still getting fortuned.
Nice. Standard. But...

You never faced Hood/Eldar with Runes/Chaos with Lash, right? Or simpy you do not write what modifications you apply? :p

Turn three reload fall back or star engine screen as appropriate. At this point i'll use a foot slog seer council fortuned
Now?! Turn 3?! Sorry. They do not exist anymore. Wiped.

and jet the spears away to remove their line of sight
-Farethuir?
-Yes, Exarch?
-Is TLoS still the rule?
-Of course Exarch, it's still 5 edition.
-Damn. We're screwed...

or depending on whats available assault again.
Now, that's more what I like! Just don't tell Imperial Guardsmen you wanna play with them. Or you won't win combat.

It works beautifully.
If your enemy doesn't know how to counter it (works 1-2 times) then every tactic works.
Note that my statement is equally general and equally proved as yours. :p

If I don't get first turn I hide my stuff as best i can in the cover as far away as i can get it and hope for the best to start the process as soon as possible.
So you base on 1/2 chance of beginning game? Don't get me wrong, it is not a solid tactic then. And that's enough not to recommend Shining Spears. Later I will discuss why.

Yeah, I mean 900 points. In one game they killed a dread, ten man stern guard, chaplain with his lighting clawed homies, a ten man tact unit and a crusader land raider.
We shall discuss each and every then.

Dread - you know you were lucky? If it was a melta, you'd get shot, so I believe it was combat with S8. With 3 attacks you get 2 hits. Then you get either glance, in which you have no chances of destroying enemy but taking down his combat arm, wihch is viable (1/36) and you get 1/3 penetration chances, where explosion, wreckage and taking down arm are good options for ye, which makes 1/6. Together it's 7/36 chances you do not suck totally, most propobaly loosing your Autarch. Maybe you get something like 1/9 per Autarch and squad with glances to take down arm. Haywire is of no help, you have 1 strike hitting on 6.

Statement 1: you're more than lucky git and you prpobaly wasn't aware of risk. :p

10 Sternguard - fist, without fist? I don't know how you did charge them, simple drop pod assault and split makes one 5 fire a volley of AP3 into you oblietarating squad but autarch, another squad being able to take down tnak with combi-meltas. Perhaps you might wanna see that made properly... In combat yes, you'd slaughter them all due to No Retreat, but believably if there was fist it should have big chances of killing your Autarch.

Conclusion 2: you've got pretty weak opponent, or it didn't happen. :p

Lightning Clawed Homies with Chapain - fine. Weak unit. But why weren't they invincable in Land Riader, huh? Umm? Where were their Storm Shields? Who takes Claws versus Eldar? Who even cares taking more than a pair of Lightning Claws but Black Templar Sword Brethen Terminators at all?

Statement 3: you've really got weak opponent. And we're speaking of tough situations. Nothing proving SS being worth consideration.

10 Tactical Marines - no proglem here.

Land Raider Crusader - I think it was melta? A gamble, 1/2. And they're free to shoot you. That was bad idea, especially as Dragons could do that...


I think that you are forgetting that the exarch has a lance weapon.
Great. Another 1/3 penetration better left for Dragons and your spears being shot to tiny pieces.
You know that Lance rule does not work in combat? Fine.

All of the models in that unit have lance weapons, plus with a melta shot there is a very real chance of killing a land raider.
Only a melta has any formidable chances thinking of. And still, you're left for all those marines to shoot. And you don't make a tough target.

Obviously they don't perform quite that well every game, and I had some good rolls. But still, that's a lot of killing.
You were simply freakin' lucky in combat with Dread, lest you'd suffer well.

The whole premise behind my army is that nothing goes by itself.
As per every working Eldar army. Maybe Spiders or Avengers, but nothing else.

The spears survive simply because there are more pressing threats to deal with.
Or your enemies don't know how to react. But that doesn't mean that Spears are awesome. They require so little fire to deal with that other units wouldn't take a lot less firepower.

A seer council,
That doesn't exist anymore and even if has any non-dangerous survivors, is still only footslogging.

fire prisms,
They require DS melta/attack bike/land speeder attention, not anti-infantry firepower. No magnet syndrom there.

transport'd banshees, transport'd fire dragons.
Naaah, that makes more sense. :p

I have only one question - 10 Banshees, 5 Dragons, footslogging council, a single prism, two falcons, 5 avengers, 10 avengers, two serpents, autarch and SS are about 1900 points. What Troops do you have?

Umm... Darkness falling... you really ever played with such configuration? Now I'm seeing different army configurations changing from situation to sitution in single battle.

When all of this stuff hits at once its money.
Your opponent won't propobaly allow that with firepower alone. Or toughness.


I put the spears where I need to make absolutely certain that the target dies.
Prego, mate, assault terminators with character. You go first with mathhammer.

Sadly I had a whole bunch of math hammer stuff typed out and then my stupid laptop died so that will have to wait for me to get back from studying. But real life beckons.
Be my guest, we have time for that.

Again the most ironic part about this, is the lead off to my previous comment was They may not fit into this list especially well.
And I'm trying to make people think why do they take them for their own responsibility. Would you ever take them for a torunament?

I don't think that he would be well served by including them but i don't think that they are a waste of points at all.
"This is where we fight!" :)

Especially for larger battles where you can expect to see high powered high save infantry.
Gah? If I had to, I'd take them for less points, s enemy has to focus on troops and has less firepower and less DSing units. Oh well...

What's interesting to me is that there isn't the same criticism for the jet council. This unit has nearly identical stat lines but the council costs a great deal more.
Ever heard of 8 3+/4+ inv re-rollable save wound unit?

True, they land strength 9 against vehicles which is great, but the autarch gets a BS 6 melta shot the exarch gets a BS 5 bright lance shot.
They're not anti-vehicle, but oh well.

Versus Land Raider:
Melta: 5/6 hit, I'll count 2/3 penetration even as it's less in reality so 10/18 and then 4+ which means 10/28.
Exarch: 5/6 hit, to penetrate 1/3 so 5/18 and then 1/3 to destroy 5/48.
Together they're less then a half.

Council:
I'll count it moved at Combat speed and did not remain stationary.
21 attacks, 10,5 hit, 1,75 penetration, 0,5(8) penetration.

Council slightly better, but per Eldar standards both units suck. Just pick Dragons.

But when we come to units with Rear Armour 10... I hope you have no further doubts. Of course neither one nor another of these units should charge them.

So we finally meet the Dread again.
I believe you don't need a mathhammer to see, why charging a dred with a council is wise, and with spears not very wise?

Not to mention they have the same armor save.
?

No?
I'm not quite sure how to answer. Look into your codex.

I run fortune right along side with my spears so now a jet council and spear unit is starting to feel very similar.
But Council still has 4+ inv re-rollable in combat which is why they may engage those who'd simply eat your spears. And council is poor-rolls resistant. Spears are not.

The biggest exception I see for the council though, is that there aren't any power weapons in the lot.
True. But plenty WS5 attacks in there, wounding even Fexes or C'tan on 2+.

This is what made me get spears in the first place.
Maybe you're facing MEQ and only MEQ?

The council gets tarred by anything with feel no pain. ANYTHING.
No. ;) And it's no secret why.

The spears rip right through it.
Great Unclean One. Suuuuuuuuuuuuuuure!

The council has a hard time with anything with a high save,
Only terminators.

spears rip right through it.
No. ;)

Greater Daemon of Khorne? Huh? Assault Terminators? Huh? You cannot fight them. You simply do not have proper units. In second case council at least survives harmlessly and fights back with nice effect. In first it simply wins. And for all MEQs there are Harlies or Banshees which I personally prefer.

I don't think that I'll be able to convince anyone away from their preconcieved notions about their utility,
You can - face me and show my what you've got, Xeno (w/b)itch (in case your Farseer is female)! :p

but in my experience they have been an extremely valuable assest. They are the scalpel of the eldar army.
I've got a feeling you play only Marines or so, but okay. We are speaking of all rounder army. Use them versus Orks, Nids, Chaos, Daemon, Guard. And see effects. And tell me how it was.
Though I really think that Codex Marines can bring them wityh slight contempt because they feel cheated by enemy's quick death.

Vassal?
 

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Funny you mention it, i just took em in the last tourney i entered and came a round away from winning it. The tournament was in Elgin Illinois, at the battle bunker. I do fight a lot of marines but i use it in my take all comers 2000 point list. The list is especially effective against nidzillas, necrons, and chaos marines. I do struggle with lash frequently, but the spears are the only thing that they get to lash. If they go down it hurts but i still have plenty of other toys on the table. I don't have much trouble with hood'd marines and I usually beat other eldar players. Its true, I do use my whole army to protect em, just like I have to use my whole army to protect guardians whenever I take those along too. Anyway, we've completely hijacked this poor thread. I'm surprized that you have so much trouble keepin the spears out of range/LOS. The foot slog council I bring has had HORRID luck killing things as simple as FNP IG command squads. Anyway like i said my goal isn't to convince anyone that has preconcieved notions about spears away from em. You say they suck, i say they don't, bickering isn't going to change anyone away from what they think.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
ok... i can't say thanks for the replies cause you were only bickering.

so... could you tell me... with a few arguments... if i should take shining spears or, if not, what else?
no bickering... no fight... just replies... please?
 

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We're not fightning. We're exchanging arguments. :p

Your list is not well-suited for them. You have plenty better options for those points. You could get more massive firepower tanks such as prisms or... Maybe some mounted troops. Or another Seer. Perhaps even another Jetbike unit.

@Farts

All right pell. Less talking, more proving. I said - Vassal. Unless that it's still bullshit at all, all that we both are speaking. Prove it with your stuff. When and were?
 

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Yeah we both agree that at 1500 pts, spears aren't a good option, especially if you only run them in a squad of three. A fire prism would add a suitable amount of punch to the army or maybe fire dragons in a WS to add a little bit more punch if you can swing it.

Gladly, i'm in rockford illinois. Where are you at? I'm free of finals after monday of next week, but would rather not have to travel more than an hour to play a game. I don't mind going as far as the bunker or even chicago somewhere, but would rather play up here at the local GW shop.
 

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I'm living in Poland No way you got there. This is why I offer you a paly via Vassal.
 
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