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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Alright, This setup doesn't seem to be working at all for me, i know I'm a fairly good tactician can someone give some suggestions as to what to buy/fix? Here are all of my options

HQ
Eldrad Ulthran - 210 Points
Avatar of Khaine - 155 Points
Maugan Ra - 195 points

Elites
Harlequin Troupe (2 harlequin's kiss models, 2 Fusion pistol models, Troupe Master, Death Jester, Shadowseer) - 214 Points
Howling Banshees (6 troopers, and an Exarch with Mirrorswords, Warshout) - 139 Points

Elites/Troops
Wraithguard (6 troopers, 1 Spiritseer, Enhance) - 256 points

Troops
Dire Avengers (9 troopers, and an Exarch with Dual Avenger Shuriken Catapults, Bladestorm) - 142 Points
Rangers (5 troopers, all Pathfinders) - 120 Points

Fast Attack
Vyper Squadron (2 Vypers, Starcannons) 140 Points

Heavy Support
Dark Reapers (4 troopers, and an Exarch with EML, Fast Shot, Crack Shot) - 227 Points
Wraithlord (Wraithsword, Starcannon, and two flamers not twin linked) - 140 Points
War Walker Squadron (Starcannon, EML, Spirit Stones) 80 Points

Transport
Wave serpent ( TL Brightlances, Shuriken Cannon, Spirit Stones) - 155 Points

Total: 2174 Points

Once again, any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!
 

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Hey there, your units look a lot like mine did in the beginning, all spread out and no real focus. (But all those different models sure look cool!)

Anyway, to pick somewhere to begin, I'd say your troops need work first. You need more than two scoring units in most games, depending on size I'd say three to four. What you get is up to you, the most popular choice being either Guardian Jetbikes or Dire Avengers with Storm Guardians as a distant third.

Dire Avengers and Storm Guardians benefit a lot from Wave Serpents, as do most of our elite choices. So a pair of Wave Serpents for two of your troop choices would be good, or maybe just one for your Dire Avengers if you decide to go with Guardian Jetbikes. Another transport for your elites is also a wise investment, for your Howling Banshees for example.

I'd also suggest getting more War Walkers for your squadron if you intend to use them. But what I really think you should get are a pair of Fire Prisms.

I'm not a big fan of any of your HQ choices, although you can always use Eldrad as a regular Farseer, but I'd still suggest at least one normal Farseer so you can wield two. Doom is necessary for your Banshees to be effective, in fact, a lot of units benefit from this. Guide and Fortune are two other really useful abilities (Fortuned Scorpions tear through Imperial Guardsmen like a jackhammer through wet tissue paper).

Over all what I think you lack is some sort of flow in what you have, you have very little fast stuff like your Vypers, so you can never take advantage of speed. You have a lot of melee/close range aspects, but nothing to get them close to your opponents or to make your opponents come to you. I'm no sure if you are going for any specific type of list, my suggestions are mostly in line with what most Eldar play in 5th, which is mechanized. If you want some other type of list let me know and I'll try to give some tips on the direction you want.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 · (Edited)
Thank you for pointing out the Wave serpent, I'll edit that now. I'm starting a squad of Jetbike Guardians, and I plan on buying a couple of fire prisms. Do you think I ought to buy some Warp Spiders? The main things I play are Thousand sons, Nids, and Space Marine Salamanders, that's why i have the Starcannons. Just to clarify. :)
 

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Warp Spiders are my new favorite choice for the fast attack slot. Even a unit of 5 with Exarch is quite effective for the 130ish points it costs. Although I don't have any Nidz to play against but I think spiders are effective against them, less so against MEQ's, even though they will force some saves since they hit quite often and tend to wound on 2's.

Starcannons are nice against MEQ's, as are Dark Reapers (even if they are fragile, never sink to many points into them, just enough to make your opponent want to deal with them). You know you can have two Starcannons on your Walkers for a total of 4 shots right? A squad of 3 with this lineup is quite the nasty sight for any MEQ player.
 

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Get another box of DA, get some more banshees, get a regular farseer or 2, get 2 more wave serpeants, get 2 prisms, get 2 more war walkers. Put a doomseer for the banshees, put a guide seer with the 3 war walkers and give them all scatter lasers or shuriken cannons, link the prism cannons, stuff the DA in wave serpeants, and the doomseer and banshees in a wave serpeant. gives the serpeants EMLs and 1 lance.
 

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You currently have
HQ=560pts that's over 25%
Elites=508pts (assuming Wave Serpent is for one of these units)
Fast Attack=140pts
Troops=262pts
Support=447pts

So I agree with Inian that you need to put more into troops, right now your troops are only 12% of your total points spent (I try and shoot for 25-30% troops). I usually run 2 full DA squads and a 6 man pathfinders in any 1500+ point game. And in 2k will often include a small jetbike squad for objective grabbing.
Your HQ takes up a whopping 25%! Shave that down. And Fire Prisms are definitely a great idea (use two to get a single S6 AP3 large blast. Use guide to help ensure mass effect).

You also listed Elites/Troops above the Wraithgaurd, just want to make sure you know that they have to be a 10man squad to be a troops choice (Im sure you do, but just in case).

I also prefer to have larger squads for my elites. This ensures enough of them live to overwhelm and continue fighting. I'd perhaps use either a 10man/woman Harly's or Banshees in the Wave Serpent instead of two 6man units.

As Eldar tend to be more single mission/tactic specific you can often look at a list and know exactly how it is intended to be used and what units will be supporting other units. This list looks a bit unfocused as Inian pointed out.

I've been playing for just over 20 years now and still find it most helpfull to build my army by looking at the mini's setup on a table, adjusting as needed. It helps me to visualize how each unit will function with the others, which is what Eldar must do. We are the crystal sword that can cut out the heart, but will shatter if we miss our mark.

Anyway, my 2cents (and them some)

-John
 
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Discussion Starter · #7 · (Edited)
Well then shoot, I'm not nearly as good a tactician as i thought. Oh well. What units tend to compliment each other in your opinions? And what exactly do you mean by not having focus? You mean like all hard hitting CC units or distance, or all fast units rather than being well balanced with a little bit of everything?
 

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If I may I'll try and help. Your army lacks focus as it cannot achieve its full potentia as the units do not work together. Your army is ore like many tiny armies trying to work together. The combat/close ranged stuff cannot get tothe enemy and the lack of shooting units means they have no support.

Your units need to compliment each other or they will die. The Eldar have units to do specific jobs and a right balance of these is essential for even an attempt at victory. Farseers are great because their powers can aid almost anything: guide to help warwalkers BS3, and doom with banshees S3 are common examples.
I find that wraithguard are very well complimented with a combat unit to protect them from rapid fire death or things like krak missiles.

The harlequins are weak strength and lack power weapons so
a). could possibly go with dire avengers as an arrowhead into the enemy lines.
b). could go with the wraithguard to finish units off however this is unadvisable as the wraithguard normally go for different targets.

Hope this helps and that I'm correct with all that I've said here. I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm not.
 

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What he means is that the untis must work together to ensure death. Example, Banshees, str 3 power weapons. Cool. But not good enough. Gotta get to combat. So you need a wave serpent. Ookay now we got the str 3 power weapon beeches in combat, cant wound for crap. Need doom. So now a doomseer joins them. There you go , 3 units working together to ensure victory.

3 war walkers, with 2 scatter lasers each, thats 24 shots at str 6 cool. But only bs 3 so averaging half hits, only 12 hits. Not good enough. Guide seer folllowing in the rear. All the sudden you reroll all those average 12 hits. 2 units working together.

Vypers have a hard time staying alive so you need to keep them in reserve alot to get rid of so much incoming fire on them. Then you have an autarch ont he table to give him a better chance for 2nd turn reserve landing.l

The list goes on. one that is the most commonly over looked is that serpeant turret weapons compliment the prisms job. alot of times i use prisms for less tank busting then BLs and EML
 

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what points total are you aiming at? 1500? 1750? 2000?

Eldrad + DAs (take 5, drop exarch)+ WS =425

park that infront of:

wraithlord and war walker (would prefer one units of 3 walkers here, rather than the wlord, you could then send the wlord forwards)
with the dark reapers off to the side in cover (but within 6" of the WS).
eldrad can then throw guide on the walkers and either the lord or the reapers depends on which is shooting on a more important target.

drop stones from the walker, and just take 5 straight DRs, no exarch. i dont thinkt he EML is worth it as if you're attacking armour, that's your entire DR units fire 'wasted', and if you leave the exarch with a standard launcher and fastshot, you're paying 32 points for 1 extra shot, which is way too much.

walker, wlord and reapers come in at: 390

you have to take the 5 pathfinders to satisfy the FOC, so that's an extra 120.

total 935 so far.

the harlie group should some in at 226. 7 base harlies = 126, 2 fusion pistolsm TroopM/Seer/Jester upgrades cost 80 and everything up the TroopM (power weapon) and Jester (shrieker) should take a kiss. attaching maugan ra to this unit could be fun, he'll benefit from veil and the unit can throw out 8 s6 shots on the move each turn. maugan also doesnt suck in the assault with his s6 power weapon.

so we're up to 1356

the most obvious next move is to throw in the 2 vipers taking you up to just below 1500. late game you can contest with the vipers and the wave serpent which moves up (with or without eldrad).

if you could find 2 more walkers, then drop the vipers, hide 3 walkers behind the WS collecting cover saves and send the wlord forward behind the harlies (shadowseer is a psyker, so no wraithsight test).

the main problem you have is the majority of your models are shooty, but vulnerable to assaults. deepstriking armies will be hard work. if you could pull together a few jetbikes and maybe drop the vipers and DRs to get the points to field a seer council (fortune seer, 1 embolden lock, rest vanilla) then that might help out. it's a unit your opponents will be worried about, which means he'll be less likely to charge forward and try and tie up your guns in CC.


as general advice i'd make sure you're taking the guns you need for the job you want to do.

e.g. the war walker. you have a star cannon (anti infantry) and an EML (anti tank). eldar is mainly about each unit excelling at a specific task. in this case you have a WS with brightlance for AT, reapers who at s5 can pop rhinos and such as well as tear up infantry. so you're basicly wanting to do 1 of 3 possibilities with your walkers. either 2x EMLs for the anti-tank/anti-horde. 2x scatterlasers which will kill pretty much everything with that many shots (shake av12, kill rhinos, force failed saves on MEQ infantry, thin horde considerably) or 2x star cannons. personally i'd take the dual star cannons. with guide they're pretty awesome and average 7-8 wounds a turn on any armour saving unit. so where the scatter lasers will fail vs termies, the star cannons will rip them apart.

if you're dropping the DRs and vipers to take a jetbike seer council, then you'll need some anti-infantry and both the starcannons and scatterlasers will do that. my prference for starcannons is mainly due to the AP2. no save = kills, and while yes, the opponent will almost certainly fail some saves with twice as many shots from a scatter laser, i prefer certain over almost certain.

NB if you take a jetbike seer council, you'll have to drop maugan from the harlie squad.

so, on the war walkers, which will be largely stationary behind your wave serpent since they can fire over it (if you pick up 2 more and have a squadron then you should be fortuning them too, rerolling cover saves on a fairly flimsy walker = win) where the enemy will be usually coming to you, then taking them out with star cannons is a good way to go. but lets compare that to likely roles for your vipers. they'll be moving fast to collect cover saves, looking to get angles to shoot side/rear armour on transports or tanks. at this point the AP2 of star cannons isnt going to help you at all, as you're attacking armour value units. instead you'd be much better off with the scatter laser as it gives you the extra shots at the same s6, which is all that matters when you're trying to get thru AV 10-11. you're using them to pop the transports so that the star cannon walkers can take the units inside off the table with a turn of fire.

similarly on the wraithlord. if it's hanging back then i'd take anti-tank. makes the most of it's BS4 and put an EML or lance on it (or both!). a lone starcannon and sword wont be much use in a holding role. if it's pushing forward, the sword will be more useful, but it'll become something of a sacrificial unit. it'll draw alot of fire and will go down before the game ends. so a sword/shuri cannon combo isnt a bad choice. you still get to shoot as you're approching (3 s6 shots compared to a scatter lasers 4 is a good return for half the points and the 24" range wont be a problem since you're going to be close to the enemy anyway). since it's going to die, but is a threat pretty much regardless of the gun it has, keeping the cost down with a shuri cannon makes sense.


one other key area to improve would be to improve your troop choices. 5 pathfinders are fine and hard to kill if you can keep the enemy from assaulting them, however they are unlikely to kill anything (ever) and
actually cost quite a few points. for example, 5 come in at 120, while 5 dire avengers in a wave serpent with twinlinked shuriken cannons cost 160. in my view the tank is more versatile than the pathfinders, since you can drop the DAs in cover (and go to ground for a 3+) while the wave serpent moves off to contest in the late game.
 

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Eris, please avoid listing point costs! It's a LO policy to not do anything that might be a violation of GW's copyright, both because we like them (and want them to stay in business) and because we like our site (and want it to stay online). Thank you.


As for options... I would go (note, units in parenthesis are ones that I would suggest that you buy);

HQ
Eldrad
Elites
Howling Banshees
(Fire Dragons)
Troops
DA
Pathfinders
Fast Attack
Vipers
(Warp Spiders)
Heavy Support
Wraithlord

*Note - apply as many Wave Serpents to this list as is fiscally possible.

My reasoning is thus;
Eldrad - Three psychic powers. Eldary goodness. Tricknology is funny. Also, keep him near your wraith units to prevent wraithsight roles.
Howling Banshees - Terminator squad what?
Troop choices - Are solid and put out serious hurt. Also, Ranger Long-Rifles are fun, and look awesome.
Fast Attack - very thematic, very Eldary, reasonably fast glass cannons.
Heavy Support - The tanks are easy to shake/stun (which defeats the point of a big gun), DR are not very mobile, and War Walkers are fairly weak in the AV department. Wraithlords are very strong, tough, and cheap.


Wave Serpents - TL gun, energy field, transport capacity, skimmer. Need I say more? (It also makes a pretty nifty ram in a pinch.)
 

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Eris, please avoid listing point costs! It's a LO policy to not do anything that might be a violation of GW's copyright, both because we like them (and want them to stay in business) and because we like our site (and want it to stay online). Thank you.
i dont think i posted any which werent already in the original post. so that horse bolted a week ago, friend.
 

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i dont think i posted any which werent already in the original post. so that horse bolted a week ago, friend.
I was reacting to the ones in the Harlies description in your post. You raise a fair point, though. English Nickel, try and avoid posting point costs!
 

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aye, but the harlie cost i give is a sum cost, which without a codex is useless. if i broke it down as: 5x harlie (15points) +shadowseer (500pts) +kiss(3billion pts)
then fair enough, but if you're worried about 'sum totals' (which most of the ones even in the original post are) then you really shouldnt go anywhere near the army list forum, it'll make you weep.
 

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but if you're worried about 'sum totals' (which most of the ones even in the original post are) then you really shouldnt go anywhere near the army list forum, it'll make you weep.

That isn't a good reason to do it.
 

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I thought the policy regarding points costs on this site was that totals are allowed, while individual costs are not.

I was sure that:
Wraithlord with bright lances (XXXpts)
was allowed, while:
Wraithlord (XXXpts)
Brightlance(XXXpts)
was not.
 

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"Under no circumstances should individual point costs be posted. Unit and character totals are both fine to post; posting the cost of specific upgrades is a huge violation of our forum rules and Games Workshop copyright."
 
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