[farseer_seele]

am i the only one here who beleives the wave serpent's holo field to be uber crap, and that we would be much better served by being able to buy a holo-field, or did they do that to keep ppl from getting pwned by a nigh-invincible mech eldar list? thoughts plz...

 

[ShadowcatX]

Energy fields aren't near as good as holofields. However, they do have uses. Specifically, they're great against Tau. Other than that, they're eh. I guess they help a bit against Las Cannons, but holofields would help far more.

 

[designer891]

I think powerfields should work like the void shields. Like when u pentrate the field it gets disabled then u can take the tank down. Or maybe even everyturn its knocked down on a roll of 4.5.6 it's back up..or maybe not. But thats how fields work in my head.

Why would they protect against strong weapons that are only S:9 or 10 and not against weaker ones? Plus the benefit isn't much.

 

[general jigger]

am i the only one here who beleives the wave serpent's holo field to be uber crap, and that we would be much better served by being able to buy a holo-field, or did they do that to keep ppl from getting pwned by a nigh-invincible mech eldar list? thoughts plz...

I've often thought about this too. I'm pretty sure it's all about game balance. Like you said, a wave serpent with a holofield would be as hard to kill as a falcon.

An idea i've had though is to reduce the armour on the Waveserpent to 10 or 11 and then give it the holofield option. It would make it easier to kill than the falcon but still a useful transport.

 

[Librarian Augustine]

or maybe be able to make it open-topped somehow, whether it adds or subtracts points

 

[Addoran]

Right, imagine the 1500 point Biel Tan list with 4/5 Wave Serpents packed with Aspect Warriors - Respectable but not that scary.

Now imagine you make all those Wave Serpents as tough as a Falcon, which statistically need 9 glancing hits (I think it was) to take down. Imagine playing that with your "other" army if you play one (i.e. playing it with SM or CSM or Tau..). Do you really see yourself in a tournament setting bringing enough anti-tank to stand a chance of knocking them all down?

Nuff said - there's a reason.

 

[Plague_00]

am i the only one here who beleives the wave serpent's holo field to be uber crap,

yes

 

[Tenozuma]

Great comment Plaugue, really enlightening, esspecially when others have just agreed that the holo field is superior. I do agree with you, for a wave serpent, a energy field isn't crap, it is however crap on a warwalker when str 8 weapons smash opened topped armor 10 vehicles.

 

[Plague_00]

it is however crap on a warwalker when str 8 weapons smash opened topped armor 10 vehicles.

true

 

[farseer_seele]

Here are my thoughts:

all AV 12 is reduced to 10. while it is 10 all-round, it keeps the energy shield, and can have holo-field.

all AV 12 is reduced to 11. Holo-field comes standard, in leiu of energy shield. this way the points should stay roughly the same.

just a thought: wave serpents and LRs used to have monopoly on AV 12+ transports... Then Necrons, now that they are giving marines drop pods, etc., its really sorta lame. also, wave serpents are incredibly costly compared to other transports.

wouldn't the eldar, so few in number, put the stronger protection on their transports, where they stand to lose 2-12 models, not 2 of a falcon???

 

[Emp.]

1) Our transports are MUCH faster than other armies
2) If ours move 12", opponents may only glance, can a rhino do that after popping smoke?
3) Our Transport can have a str-6 ap-2 T-L starcannon on top, can a rhino match that?
4) Our transports have a higher AV than most other transports
5) Our transports are able to shrug off a glancing 1-3 on a simple roll of a die

Our transports are far superior to the inferior race of Marines.....besides for what we are getting, I'll glady pay for our Wave Serpeant...it alone can dish out more fire-power than certain "other-army" squads....

 

[tarzen]

1) Our transports are MUCH faster than other armies

drop pod anyone? dark eldar?

2) If ours move 12", opponents may only glance, can a rhino do that after popping smoke?

yes, yes a rhino can do that. As you mentioned, pop smoke and you're good in a rhino, plus it has firing ports. Holds the same amount of men, but doesn't die if it gets immobolized moving more than 6", and can selfrepair, can a WS do that?

3) Our Transport can have a str-6 ap-2 T-L starcannon on top, can a rhino match that?

rhino, no, but DE, and IG have many that can do better than that.

4) Our transports have a higher AV than most other transports

but die if they get immobolized. When you factor this in, and the fact that our transport costs 2 times as much, it's not a great deal.

5) Our transports are able to shrug off a glancing 1-3 on a simple roll of a die

and rhinos ignore stunned with armour, and can self repair immobolized, your point?

Our transports are far superior to the inferior race of Marines.....besides for what we are getting, I'll glady pay for our Wave Serpeant...it alone can dish out more fire-power than certain "other-army" squads....

Not better, just different. A wave serpent can certainly be kitted for more specific rolls than just transport (mine are my main anti tank, when I field them), but at the high cost, bad bs (even twinlinked) and the fact that they have no fireports, and aren't open topped, and the field sucks....

Void shields, btw, repair on a 6. 5 with a tech, and +1 for each servo skull he has with him, to a max of 3+ I believe. And eldar don't have void shields, we only have holofields, which confer a 4+ invulnerable to all glancing and pen hits. That's what the ws should have. better against some, worse against others.

 

[Tenozuma]

Can a Rhino move 24"?
Can a Rhino move over terrain without penalty?
Does a Rhino require 6's to be hit in combat?
Can a Rhino transport deadly aspect warriors or wraithguard? They can't even take terminators.

Dark eldar on our transports have a bs 4 dark lance standard and for a low ammount of points can be upgraded to a disintergrator (identical to plasma cannon but with a 3 shot str 5 ap3 secondary mode)

A wave serpent has a bs3 twin linked heavy weapon of choice + twin linked shuriken catapults (can be upgraded)

So a raider dies when it gets a weapon destroyed, has worse armour by alot, has no protective fields of any kind and cannot buy any, is open topped so easier to destroy but can assault.

Don't gett me wrong, I love the raider, I plan to use several but the wave serpent is a contender for best trasnport in the game. I think its only rivalled by the land raider and its varients and the monolith but they are both a condsiderable ammount more expensive.

 

[Plague_00]

for the amount of points we pay it is okay, we have to stop comparing it to other transports as then you have to look at price for sed transports.

like a rhino is only 50 points and such is much better value than a wave serpent BUT a wave serpent would totally butrape the rhino in game.

 

[farseer_seele]

yes

hilarious. THAT IS A TYPO. I was referring to its energy field, if you read the entry it can't even get a holo-field. so that was sorta spammish IMHO.

we only have holofields, which confer a 4+ invulnerable to all glancing and pen hits. That's what the ws should have. better against some, worse against others.

where can you find this in teh codex i am a wee bit confused by your sentence.

GW realized that rhinos were inferior, gamewise (but not with points factored in) to our WS. So what happens? They give their poster child drop pods. If eldar had anything like that there would be screams of cheese everywhere. (come on, 10 banshees per pod in the middle of their formation!)

exactly. yeah, the WS is great, but its a paper cloud.
:w00t: STAR ENGINES! Move 24" into cover, star engine if need be (26"-36" into cover in one turn. sweet). LOS lvl 3 blocker. Next turn, move 12", so you are some more cover. really near. unload contents, and star engine into that cover. If you are carrying banshees, drop em in the cover and move away. so with spirit stones, star engines, and tl starcannons your serpent clocks in at 150 pts.

anyone have ideas on if this will work to reduce the crappyness of Energy Shields?

 

[Da Mighty Camel]

You can't use star engines if you unload troops if my memory doesn't lie to me...
I think the WS is good as it is. A little exspensive, but that is everything in my favourite army

 

[farseer_seele]

You can't use star engines if you unload troops if my memory doesn't lie to me...
I think the WS is good as it is. A little exspensive, but that is everything in my favourite army

really? i thought that you just couldn't shoot, or do any other actions in the shooting phase, or use CTM in conjunction. I hope you can use Star engines, doing so would make my life a lot easier.

and the last too statement is ever so true, he says wistfully.

 

[tarzen]

Can a Rhino move over terrain without penalty?

yes, just not area terrain

Does a Rhino require 6's to be hit in combat?

yes, if it moved more than 6"

Can a Rhino transport deadly aspect warriors or wraithguard? They can't even take terminators.

no, as marines can't take aspects, just like a wave serpent can't take a librarian. Apples and oranges. But a rhino can take a basic squad of marines, much much cheaper than a wave serpent and aspects. A squad of marines that will stand up to shooting and most combat better than a squad of aspects or wraith guard. Fully kited squad of marines in a souped up rhino for 250pts, minimum of 330 for a similar waveserpent and aspects. that's another squad of marines with a heavy bolter.

Dark eldar on our transports have a bs 4 dark lance standard and for a low ammount of points can be upgraded to a disintergrator (identical to plasma cannon but with a 3 shot str 5 ap3 secondary mode)

A wave serpent has a bs3 twin linked heavy weapon of choice + twin linked shuriken catapults (can be upgraded)

again, apples and oranges. how many more points is a wave serpent? What's the wave serpents bs? The de can fire out of there transport, to add more guns to it too.

So a raider dies when it gets a weapon destroyed,

no, reread p 67, if it is immobolized, and weapon destroyed, and then takes another hit...

has worse armour by alot,

agreed, but has more weapons, and is half the points.

has no protective fields of any kind and cannot buy any

a field that effects 3 guns in the game-wahoo. that's like saying a warwalker is better than a sentinel because it has a field.

is open topped so easier to destroy

most certainly agreed here, but look at what it gains for this, which you addressed next {besides having the whole crew shoot

but can assault.

which is the biggest thing out there. If you could assault off a wave serpent, just think of the carnage. Part of why a landraider costs 230 some odd points. To assault after moving 12", then 2" disembark, gives you a charge range of 20", nearly half the board. Also, keep in mind that many of de's cc troops are better than eldars.

Don't gett me wrong, I love the raider, I plan to use several but the wave serpent is a contender for best trasnport in the game. I think its only rivalled by the land raider and its varients and the monolith but they are both a condsiderable ammount more expensive.

No, the best tank would be the falcon, fully kitted. doesn't phase out, counts as a scoring unit, harder to kill than the landraider, can move up to 24" a turn, can be kitted to kill anything, fire up to 12 shots a turn, transport a seer council of death, and can tank shock.

again, apples and oranges. Each army has something to help THEM do what there army does.


as to the Holofield I spoke of, that's eldars void shield comparison. Its vdr. Better than the confusing holofields in the codex, and more eldar.


edit: one note on starengines. Just like vectored engines, vehicles can only move up to 24" now, so they are redundant. Sorry to pop another bubble.

 

[Da Mighty Camel]

edit: one note on starengines. Just like vectored engines, vehicles can only move up to 24" now, so they are redundant. Sorry to pop another bubble.

With star engines you move extra in the shooting phase. And I am very sure that you an move more than 24 if you have means to do it.
If that is true, then the Orks Red paint job is useless as well.

 

[farmerralph]

Im not sure why star engines would stop working in the new rules. But going back on topic i love the energy field on the serpent. True its not as good as the holofield but few things are and if the serpent came with that as standard it would need a severe points hike.

a field that effects 3 guns in the game-wahoo. that's like saying a warwalker is better than a sentinel because it has a field.

actually a lot more than 3 guns. remember that it helps against melta and ordinance as well.
so... lascannons, meltaguns, heavy gauss cannons, fusion guns, railguns, earthshakers, warp blasts, multimeltas, battle cannons, zzap guns, d-cannons and the now truly disgusting assults cannon are all severely affected. Not to mention those marines and csm with missile launchers and tank hunters. There are more but i dont really want to list every single weapon. And consider how many times do you fight an imperial army (which are most of those out there) which does not have any meltagubs or lascannons?
Also a war walker is not better than a sentinel because it has a field. the field on the sentinel has very limited use. a war walker is better because it can blow seven shades of *$^% out of most things which a sentinel most certainly cannot. And nor should it when you compare the points cost and the fluff.