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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
This is meant to be a highly competative Eldar list, and through 40 games it is 40-3. From reading through the eldar forums these past months I already know that people are going to have gripes with the pathfinders, vyper, and HQ choices. But having used this list they work extremely well, and Eldrad is possibly one of the most useful characters in all of 40k.

Eldar: 2000
HQ
Eldrad Ulthran

The Avatar of Khaine

TROOPS
Pathfinders*6: 144

Pathfinders*6: 144

Pathfinders*6: 144

ELITES
Howling Banshees*10: 187
-Exarch
-Executioner
-War Shout

Fire Dragons*10: 160
-Exarch
-Firepike

Wave Serpent: 135
-Starcannon
-Spirit Stones

Wave Serpent: 135
-Starcannon
-Spirit Stones

FAST ATTACK
Vyper: 85
-Bright Lance
-Spirit Stones

HEAVY SUPPORT
Fire Prism: 160
-Holofield
-Spirit Stones

Fire Prism: 160
-Holofield
-Spirit Stones

Fire Prism: 160
-Holofield
-Spirit Stones
 

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HQ: Swap eldred for a cheaper farseer. I can't see his many psi powers contributing that much to the army for his high cost. The avatar is a good fearless zone generator but it is slow. More about him later.

Troops: one unit of pathfinders is ok but more are a waste of points as they don't kill things fast enough. 3 units of bladestorming avengers would be better and could advance around the avatar protected by his combat threat and fearless zone. Cast doom on the opponents and they really shine.

Banshees: Their transport needs vectored engines. cast doom on their opponents before they charge.

Fire dragons: 10 man units are overkill against vehicles but good against terminators and carnifexes. drop the exarch as he contributes little.

Viper: Drop the upgrades. I think 2xShuriken cannon is the best loadout and go for flank armour. The poor BS hampers single shot weapons.

Prisms: ok.

Any points left over spend on another viper or upgrading the wave serpents to bright lances.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Your two biggest pieces of advice are the two cornerstones to this force. Eldrad is many times better then a normal farseer. He allows me to utilise one of the eldars biggest strengths: psychic powers, they allow all my units to perform at a higher level and the man just doesn't die. Secondly, the pathfinders are the other cornerstone of the force. They are extremely annoying, with a 2+ cover save their are only 2 ways to get rid of them, with flamers or assault. That is why the Avatar is there, to protect them. With the vyper i can see your point, it is their just to get that little extra anti-tank punch.
 

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The Fallen
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Your two biggest pieces of advice are the two cornerstones to this force. Eldrad is many times better then a normal farseer. He allows me to utilise one of the eldars biggest strengths: psychic powers, they allow all my units to perform at a higher level and the man just doesn't die.
eldrad is not realy any harder to kill than any other farseer, and the rest of your statement, sorry, is just esoteric nonsense, what powers does he allow you to use? on what unit? why cant you do this with a standard farseer for 1/3 to 1/2 of the price? seriously, I realise that that sounds rather contentious, it isnt meant to be, we area trying to help, but you dont relly give any substantive reason for your insistance on taking him and 20 odd years of experiance tells me madcat is right, so try and explain why you use him and why you cant use a normal farseer, you may have a point, but clearly neither of us see it
Secondly, the pathfinders are the other cornerstone of the force. They are extremely annoying, with a 2+ cover save their are only 2 ways to get rid of them, with flamers or assault. That is why the Avatar is there, to protect them. With the vyper i can see your point, it is their just to get that little extra anti-tank punch.
erm, right, the pathfinders are costing you 432 points, for 18 shots per turn, that gives you, on average 6 AP1 hits and 9 normal hits, that gives you 3 AP1 wounds and 4-5 normal AP wounds, equating to 4 dead MEQs per turn, if your opponent completely ignores them, they will manage to kill 24 marines, assuming your opponent is terminally daft and isnt aware of the benefits of cover, despite you using it for 6 turns or 360 points, way less than they actually cost you, any "good" opponent wont bother getting annoyed but will rather get out the party hat becuase you are wasting points
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
First of all, Eldrad is harder to kill than a normal farseer, with a 3+ invulnerable, usually fortuned he is a thorn in the opponents side. Secondly with 3 powers cast per turn he adds greater versatility to the force. He allows me to fortune the avatar, guide the prism, and guide the vyper. Secondly, his ability to redeploy units adds a greater depth of tactical versatility. For instance, I can use that power to draw some of my opponents anti-tank to one flank of the battlefield, only to redeploy it behind cover, thus isolating the anti-tank. In addition, he provides surprisingly good close combat support, nothing major, but just enough. He is the cornerstone of the force and allows me to do much more then just a normal farseer would.

You can use mathhammer all you want, but the pathfinders do their job admirably. Like said before, their are 2 ways to kill them, flamers and combat. For combat I have the avatar and Eldrad to protect while the flamers should never get close enough. Sure, they might not kill as many marines as mass bladestorming, but they are a hell of a lot harder to kill. They are as much about victory point denial as they are about killing things.

The list works because of it's ability to deal with any threat you throw at them.

Didn't get to post as much as i would have liked, will post more tomorrow.
 

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The Fallen
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First of all, Eldrad is harder to kill than a normal farseer, with a 3+ invulnerable, usually fortuned he is a thorn in the opponents side.
sure but he is twice as expensive as a normal farseer and only 1 in 6 more resiient
Secondly with 3 powers cast per turn he adds greater versatility to the force. He allows me to fortune the avatar, guide the prism, and guide the vyper. Secondly, his ability to redeploy units adds a greater depth of tactical versatility. For instance, I can use that power to draw some of my opponents anti-tank to one flank of the battlefield, only to redeploy it behind cover, thus isolating the anti-tank. In addition, he provides surprisingly good close combat support, nothing major, but just enough. He is the cornerstone of the force and allows me to do much more then just a normal farseer would.
ok yes but again he is twice the price of your standard farseer, guiding prisms and cypers isnt ultra efficient and they should be moving fast (6-12) and vypers hould be trying to exploit flamks to get the best out of them, the redeploy is useful but again is it worth the points, cant help but feel you would cope just as well with a single farseer with stones and 2 powers and save yourself a bucket full of points
You can use mathhammer all you want, but the pathfinders do their job admirably. Like said before, their are 2 ways to kill them, flamers and combat. For combat I have the avatar and Eldrad to protect while the flamers should never get close enough. Sure, they might not kill as many marines as mass bladestorming, but they are a hell of a lot harder to kill. They are as much about victory point denial as they are about killing things.
it isnt just maths hammer, it is over 20 years using eldar, they dont kill fast, sometimes you face opponents where they are efficient, notably nidzilla armies, and termie heavy ones, but generally they pose no real threat to a good oponent, sure he may not get the vps from killing them, but you wont get vps from their kills and it gives him 400 points to deal with the rest of your army
The list works because of it's ability to deal with any threat you throw at them.

Didn't get to post as much as i would have liked, will post more tomorrow.
ok, will wait, but this sort of list isnt a serious threat to good players becuase it hobbles it self with so many pathfinders
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
I have taken this list to multiple tournaments and found that it does work. I think the pathfinders are a very underrated unit. They are their as the main distraction while the Fire Prisms and aspects do all the damage. I just don't understand how you can think this list doesn't deal with multiple types of armies. I have got suitable amounts of anti-tank, good close combat, and the ability to deal with many threats.

On the Eldrad point, why take a regular farseer when i can have something BETTER? He gives me the versatility i need. Let me give an example; i was playing a top tier necron player that used the deciever. I would be in serious trouble if it got to my lines, but I was able to mind war it TWICE because of Eldrad. Sure I have the pathfinders but by using eldrad to destroy the deciever I could focus my pathfinders on the other threats, such as the immortals. It is not always about points eficiency but about what a unit or character can do. Again, why would you take something less when you can get something better!!??
 

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eldrad is completely awesome in tournament play
the ability to have all 5 eldar physic powers and use three per turn is a huge advantage.


:party:
 

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ok i am going to have to agree and sing Eldrads praises. the guy is a menace, i used him and played against him and found his effectiveness greater than that of any unit. you see i know where your coming from, going with the lesser farseer to save points but you cannot match Eldrads potential.

many characters and units are there to gain their points back by killing stuff, he is there to make everything else kill more. for example, many players sing the praises of guided bladestorming Avengers firing at a Doomed unit, this is an awesomely powerful combo that will destroy a lot of units or render them useless. now consider the fact of adding a Guided reaper squad to fire. the potency of that 3rd psycic power is unmatchable.

and again in another of his examples he used Mind War twice, that is by far the best way to 'snipe' commanders.

so yes you can get a cheaper farseer, but none with a 3+ inv save, 5 psycic powers, 3 weapons and the ability to disrupt your opponents psycic powers.

personally i think eldrad i the best and most cost effective character in 40k.

also considering that if his claims of 40-3 record is true, why question his list? at the end of the day many lists work better when considered how they will be used and what will be used against them, dont knock something just because you don't use it! :happy:
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Thanks for the replies guys, it is interesting to see different peoples views on the list. The list has only lost to a tau army twice and a necron army once. The one downside of the list is that it is semi-reliant on the terrain, but that can be overcome. Thanks again for the replies, keep them coming!
 

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OK please forgive the persistence, I really am simply trying to help.

You havent answered the points with anything like facts I dont think, I agree that Eldrad has his uses, but the pathfinders particularly you simply ignore the points we raise, then say "thanks" when people tell you it is good, lets see then:

I have taken this list to multiple tournaments and found that it does work.
all sorts of lists work at all sorts of tourneys, it isnt completely terrible, but the pathfinders are hobling you for the reasons I have already given[/quote] I think the pathfinders are a very underrated unit. They are their as the main distraction while the Fire Prisms and aspects do all the damage. I just don't understand how you can think this list doesn't deal with multiple types of armies. I have got suitable amounts of anti-tank, good close combat, and the ability to deal with many threats.[/quote]
the rest of the army is fine, my point I raised, is pathfinders are simply not a threat, they dont kill fsat enough unless your opponent has something like a hoard of termies or a nidzilla army, if you have something that isnt a threat, a good player will igore it, hence it is not a distractions. I watched a tourney today (both of my kids played in it and they made me agree not to play, and the winner won simply by knowing exactly what unit to deal with when and what to ignore, In what was ostensibly the final, one of my kids played him, he lost three marines and killed 4, in 6 turns, very crazy battle, but completely well executed.
On the Eldrad point, why take a regular farseer when i can have something BETTER? He gives me the versatility i need.
Well the point I have made several times already is that the something better is over twice as expensive, now, let me say again, I am not saying "dont use Eldrad" because there are armies and occasions where he is very usefull, but if I offered you the ability to use a fourth power each turn and doubly his toughness, if you let the special rule drop, would you? yes of course you would, but that is 2 farseers (and I am understating that case). now there arguements, the special rule, the max number of HQ slots, but If you drop Eldrad to a normal farseer, how often do you use the the extra power? once or twice a game? more than that and he is blowing his brains out his nose, even then it is likely. For the points you save you can take , for example, 2 war walkers, throwing out 12 shots at str 6 per turn, eating light armour, light infantry and damaging heavy infantry. is that a fair swap for an extra power you rarely use?
Let me give an example; i was playing a top tier necron player that used the deciever. I would be in serious trouble if it got to my lines, but I was able to mind war it TWICE because of Eldrad. Sure I have the pathfinders but by using eldrad to destroy the deciever I could focus my pathfinders on the other threats, such as the immortals. It is not always about points eficiency but about what a unit or character can do. Again, why would you take something less when you can get something better!!??
again, you can do this with 2 farseers. I already pointed this out, please try and answer the points I raised rather than just saying "he is really really good"
 

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to tackle one of your points i use that third power every single turn
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
I have answered your point on the pathfinders several times. And your point about them not killing fast enough is simply, (no offense meant), wrong. They have done things such as pin critical units, destroy rhinos, and kill termie squads on multiple occasions. There ability to take out monstrous creatures, power armoured marines, and termies coupled with their survivability make them a very effective unit. As they provide cover fire, pin some units, and become distractions the fire prisms take out masses of infantry and powerful tanks. While the banshees provide the surgical strike, and the fire dragons take out massive tanks or powerful units of infantry. See, the pathfinders do not provide mass killing power, but instead function as annoying distractions, while the core of the army does massive damage to the opponent.

Also, one of the greatest strengths of the eldar is their psychic powers, and that is why i take eldrad, to max out on their potential. The reason i wouldn't take 2 farseer's is because i need the avatar to make my pathfinders fearless and to defend my lines. If you want to see the list in action, try it yourself, maybe that will change your opinion.
 

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I have answered your point on the pathfinders several times.
ok appologies,but I have just read back through the entire thread and you havent, every time you raise that they are resilient,which they are I grant you, and state they are annoying, but it doesnt address the fact that 6 pathfinders wont manange to revcover their own points back, they dont kill fast enough.
And your point about them not killing fast enough is simply, (no offense meant), wrong.
really, why do you say that? with the greatest of respect, you need to present some evidence, other than anacdotal, I have pointed out the maths hammer, and sure that isnt all there is to it, but the other stuff doesnt make them kill fsater, stuff like lack of LOS, having to move and casualties means they kill even slower.
They have done things such as pin critical units, destroy rhinos, and kill termie squads on multiple occasions.
well ok lets take these:
pinning, most people are fully aware pinning is not effective as a reliable stratergy, the tough units you would like to pin are either fearless or of such high leadership that pinning barealy ever has any effect, the only units you can reliable pin are poorly trained infantry, who are so low in points that pinning a single unit is a drop in the ocean
Destroy rhinos, well yes but that is back to inefficiency, 6 pathfinders will manage about 1glancing/penetrating hit, one can gett better result far cheaper (points wise)
Terminators, well I already conceeded that terminators and monsterous creatures are good targets, but I doubt all those pathfinders spend all their turns in ever game pointing at such targets
There ability to take out monstrous creatures, power armoured marines, and termies coupled with their survivability make them a very effective unit.
well again, I already conceeded that terminators and monsterous creatures are good targets, if these are all you play then fine, however I find normal mrines more common, and as the maths hammer does demonstrate, the best you can hope for as a statistical average, is not efficient
As they provide cover fire, pin some units, and become distractions
there is no such thing as cover fire in the game, a good player is not distracted by them and pinning as is widely accepted is not a reliable stratergy
the fire prisms take out masses of infantry and powerful tanks. While the banshees provide the surgical strike, and the fire dragons take out massive tanks or powerful units of infantry. See, the pathfinders do not provide mass killing power, but instead function as annoying distractions, while the core of the army does massive damage to the opponent.
again on the point I have already stated twice and you havent answered, a good player will not get distracted by them, they are inefficient and not really a threat
Also, one of the greatest strengths of the eldar is their psychic powers, and that is why i take eldrad, to max out on their potential. The reason i wouldn't take 2 farseer's is because i need the avatar to make my pathfinders fearless and to defend my lines. If you want to see the list in action, try it yourself, maybe that will change your opinion.
Well again as I already conceeded you cant take another farseer without losing the avatar, so that is a point, although again you give no real statement of the need for eldrad.

In over 20 years of playing eldar I have used similar lists, this is why I know the points against it.

Why put up a list if you choose to discount all suggestions and systematically are not prepared to justify anything questioned?
 

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The bane of all pathfinders - HELLHOUND:0

Keeping flamers away from you is one thing but the hellhound is a whole new story. Also jump troops are difficult to stop from reaching combat with them. If you insist on keeping the avatar at the back with the pathfinders as a babysitter then you are just making the points sink worse and you opponent will ignore them with even more glee.
 

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i have to agree that three squads of pathfinders are too many, ive been playing with pathfinders and rangers for a very long time, and ive only ever had one squad of them. Hes right they just dong make up their points, and tatically are very static. I would say stick with one squad of 7 and throw some DA in there.
 

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I don't understand why you post a list on a board with the (assumed?) desire to improve it and when you get solid advice from two different posters providing supporting evidence to their arguments, you don't even listen to them. Why are you posting your list here? Did you want any advice? if not, then why is it here? You claim it's success, so again, why is it here then?
 

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Though I personally like Eldrad, especially in a tourney where you aren't sure what you're up against, but combined with the avatar, he does make your list a bit top heavy. I've also always been of the opnion that DAs are a better option than pathfinders, seeing as how you get 2 DAs for 1 pathfinderand 2 DAs are probably just as likely (too lazy to do the mathhammer but it sounds right in my head) to kill a marine and are much more useful against hoardes.

It kind of escapes me why you posted this list on the army list advice forum if you are simply going to defend your choices to the last. Generally, this is where you post a list to have it critiqued and improved. The best way to solve a problem is to have another set of eyes looking at it. A person commenting on your list doesn't think he's better than you. He might just see something that you don't (I don't think many people, myself included, see the flaws in their own lists as readily as an outside observer might). Sorry to rant, but really, we're just trying to help. I remember my first submitted army list being ripped to shreds, but I don't begrudge anyone that cause it saved me a lot of time and money.
 
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