[eris]

hey, i'm looking thru the dex for units which i can drop on (for example) my opponents HQ which might actually cause him to focus on in order to shift them. with our average stats of t3 with a 4+ save, the options are few and far between, but i do have 2 basic options that i can see.

1) seer council - farseer with fortune + 10 warlocks (1 enh, 1emb)
2) wraithguard - 5 wraithguard + 1 warlock (enh) + IC (Yriel or Karandras)

while i'd like the unit to pose 'some' threat, their primary purpose is to not die (or at least not quickly and easily). i'd be quite happy for them to get suck in cc on the hq for the entire game, or making my opponent focus a good amount of his firepower on taking them down.

both of these seem to have their plusses and minus'.


seer council
+ can be wave serpented across the board (star engines if req) to reach their target.
+ pose a decent threat with their witchblades, can kill infantry and vehicles in the assault.
+ fortune with 4+ inv saves makes them pretty tought, even with only t3.
+ 11 models with 13 wounds.
+ unlikely to fail leadership with embolden present.
- withblades allow armour saves, so is some what more reliant on poor rolling from my opponent to win combat.
- a single librarian can shut down fortune 50% of the time and with 3s to hit / 3s to wound and only a 4+ save the council will fold quickly.

wraithguard + IC
+ can be wave serpented across the board (star engines if req) to reach their target.
+ pose a threat with the wraithcannons, eye of wrath and spear of twilight/power claw.
+ majority toughness 6 means 'standard' weapons (s4) will need 6s to wound. so they're more likely to attract fire from 'anti-mech' weapons.
+ yriel/karandras have power weapons and mulitple attacks (4 and 6) so a reasonable chance to win/tie combat
+ yriel's eye of wrath can be used to knock out entire units.
+ karandras' 2+ save and immunity to instant death can be useful vs ap3 weapons or for soaking up wounds from lascannons etc.
+ fearless
- 7 models with 9 wounds (which is less thant he council)
- having only an armour save, they will fall easier to low ap guns or power weapons.


my view is that with fortune up the council is a clear winner, however a librarian nulifying fortune for even one turn could mean a quick death for the entire squad. i somewhat expect to face a lib in my local meta, so hence the debate.

the wratihguard will take few wounds, won't run, the IC should guarantee a few unsaved wounds (2-3 a turn) in CC and the unit does not rely upon nulifiable psychic powers for it's survivability.

so i'm leaning towards the wraithguard at the moment. that leaves me with the question of which IC to take.


yriel
+ eye of wrath can kill entire units (but will hurt the wraithguard, passing their 3+ save), splitting him off resolves this but also makes the WG even more vulnerable to losing CC.
+ attacks at i7 meaning he will almost always strike first, reducing the number of hits the wraithguard take in CC by killing models.
+ has a 4+ invul save.
+ spear of twilight is a singing spear so can be used as a s9 12" range attack.
+ s9 when assaulting vehicles (karandras is only s8)
+ is 60 points cheaper than karandaras.
- spear of twilight is a power weapon, with 4 attacks he averages 2.25 wounds per assault (less than kara)
- only has a 3+ armour save (kara has a 2+)
- not immune to instant death, so cant 'soak up' wounds from high str weapons/fists

karandras
+ scorpions claw is a power fist, with 6 attacks he averages 3.33 wounds per assault (more than yriel)
+ his 2+ save lets me assign ap3 wound to him and still have a great chance to save (vs yriels is 4+ inv)
+ being immune to instant death means i can take lascannon shots on him and not lose a model as i would if using yriel instead.
- attacks at i1, so all enemy models will attack in CC.
- 215 points to yriels 155.

i think that's about it. i'd appreciate peoples thoughts on both questions..

1) council vs wraithguard - which is more survivable (assuming a librarian is present)
2) does yriel or karandras better compliment the wraithguard unit?

 

[nigelboyette]

i would go with the council but put runes of warding on your farseer to reduce the risk of a null zone power going off.

hope my advice helps and good luck!!!

 

[kriswithak]

Maybe the council cut down a bit in size with Yriel included? His power weapon attacks would be handy plus he can move away, tie something else up, and then let his eye do the talking.
I think most people use a council in conjunction with other units though, to make sure they aren't left in bad situations.

 

[eris]

cheers nigelboyette, i'm right there with you as my other seer has runes of warding. great minds and all that. the one downside of that is it doesnt affect the phychic hood, so there's still a big risk of losing fortune altogether, before my opponent even needs to think about null zone.

kriswithak, cramming yriel in would leave my with a seer, 4 locks and yriel, which doesnt feel like something which would live very long heh. 10 wounds, but t3 with 4+ saves. yriel is an odd one as his primary ability (eye) doesnt really fit the mold or what i want he unit to do, but his high initiative and power weapon (wounding on 2s) means he'd take out a few models before they can attack. so when he's with the unit he's pretty useful, but breaking him off to use eye makes them both more likely to die. the use of eye with this type of unit will probably be more or a 'last stand' type of thing, where the unit has been broken and only yriel and 1-2 wraithguard remain, so i pop eye and risk taking out the two wraithguard in order to kill whatever is assaulting them.

i'm actually also running a jetbike council in my 1500 but have around 500 point spare for this 'hard to kill' unit. the plan is to emulate (for example) a termie unit which deepstrikes onto your HQ around turn 3. it's something which will often ake you change your game in order to clear them off, putting more resources into doing that than you would normally have 'on defense'. the termies arent really there to rip stuff up, they're there to contest and survive, that's the type of unit i'm trying to put together for eldar.

--edit
the jetbike council is also something which is pushing me towards the wraithguard option. i dont particularly want to embrace the 'cheese', but the jetbike council is a strong, versatile unit for attack and defense which i find quite invaluable.

a second council will undoubtadley ring the cheese bell, but there are a complete lack of tough unit in the eldar 'dex. wraithguard are an option, and using them like this gets around alot of their downsides.

slow - they're in a wave serpent
short range - they're dropped on the opponents objective, so there will be things to shoot (tho killing is not really their purpose, just surviivng)
poor in the assault - yriel is there to help tip the balance, normal s4 guys will only wound them on 6s, so with yriel putting out some wounds you're at risk of winning combat.

so do i take the 'guard just to avoid the cheese?

 

[nakaruru]

You have a bike council and you are struggling to find a unit that can tie up/beat enemy HQs? What type of HQ are you getting killed by? The bike council you have would do everything your asking extremely well. It is more resilient than a foot council because of better T and a 3+ armor save. It may struggle to get kills against great save units but rarely should it be loosing by any large number so passing tests and staying in combat shouldn't be a problem.

If you are worried about being called chessy or a powergamer or whatever other names go for the wraithguard, but it will be unimpressive most times as it will get a round of shots then be stuck in melee where the best you can expect it to do against most good melee units is not loose to fast.

As for the Karandras ( have you considered Jain Zar? good str power weapon at speed and some nice 12" shots to go along with the wraithguard, even Maugen Ra could give you str 6 swings at speed and a rending gun for that turn of shooting ) V yriel question I go with Yriel. Costs less and hits at inititive giving you the chance to thin the enemy before they attack and has an inv save for powerweapons he may end up facing. He also has a better chance of taking out AV, and the eye gives him a chance to break off and tackle a squad solo. The bonus to reserves can help with deployment options as well.

 

[eris]

doh! by HQ, i was meaing the enemy objective in capture and control missions. round here it's often called 'headquarters', hence HQ.

RE: karandras, yriel, other HQs..
i did a fairly extensive mathhammer examination of all the eldar HQs, comparing their performance against ws4 t4 units. kara wins by a fair margin, 3.3 kills per turn avergage, jain zar, maugan and yriel on 2.25 and the rest all under 2. kara also has the bonus of causing instant death and s8 hits vs vehicles, yriel betters that, but the other two are s6 and so will mostly wiff at armour. all the other points you mention about yriel are good and it's probabyl worth taking him just for the spare points which i can use for holofields etc.

in terms of how well the wguard should hold up vs dedicated CC units, they should win combat vs 5 LClaw termies, a 10 man assault marine squad + serg with a fist, 10 genestealers, 10 banshees (exarch with mirror swords) or 5 nob bikers all with power claws. they're not a push over to kill. and having them stuck in combat is actually a bonus as they will avoid any high strength shots from lascannons and such.

 

[nakaruru]

From my experience they rarely do well against anything you just listed (maybe bad rolling but I've had mine ground down and killed by SoB ). My biggest problem with karandras isn't the number of kills he gets it is that you are wasting the insane inititive of an enhanced PL by using the claw making him slower than a normal ork. Removing 2 or 3 models before they get to swing every round stops alot of attacks in the long run.

Lastly in your math hammering did you plan any attacks going against the IC in the squad? If my quick numbers are correct two LC termies on the charge would average 3 wounds which is an expensive dead PL and a squad with greatly reduced killing power.

Having said that wraithguard I feel survive mass small arms shooting better than a foot council. So if you feel comfortable with the squad in melee it will be rather hard for your enemy to shift them by shooting. If you plan to drop them off later in the game the number of templates and high str weapons the enemy has left should be low.

 

[eris]

the initiative loss is a big issue, and you're right, i should probably rule him out on that basis. hitting first (as yriel tends to do) and taking those models out of the fight is pretty important in terms of keeping the unit alive, so i think that questions answered now.

assuming the termies get the charge, they're still swinging after everything i have, yirel going first then the lock and guards on i5 (with enhancement), so there 'should' be 3 less termies by the time they swing on i4. ofc that's maths, not dice, but hey till you roll maths is all you've got heh. 2 termies, 8 attacks hitting on 4s gives you 4 hits, 2.6 wounds (on a 3+) with a 4+ inv save from yriel meaning 1.3 wounds inflicted on average. even if there are 3 termies up and in base to base with him then the average is still only 2 wounds. also taking into accound that i should be [aying attention and have the squad set up so that yriel only comes into base to base from my defenders react move, then he should end up in base to base with at most 2 models and commiting the other termies to fighting the wguard.

 

[banis]

I was gonna post that i thought the wraithguard serpent squad was a bad idea. Atleast i have found it to be a waste(can get 10 firedragons cheaper). But putting yriel with them might not be such a bad idea. But i guess it depends what they are up against. A stray ordance shot would really ruin their day, once they are out in the open. And multiple ork power claws would also eat them( as i have found out often enough) Let us know how it works out.

 

[eris]

going ok so far. taken out a 10 man tac squad with a fist, survived 10 charging khorne zerkers (again with a fist), held off an 8man jetbike seer counci for the two turns they needed to (the council was falling ^^) and killed off some random space wolves marine unit that i cant really remember before finally falling to more lascannon shots and another assault from another unit and a priest.

so on average it's doing it's job so far. tho in 3 out of 4 of those situations the 11 man seer council probably would have done even better. probably not enouhg games yet to decide for sure if they'll do the job, i rolled well vs the zerkers and the council rolled pretty badly, but not unhappy with the start they've made.

 

[Daziel]

I see what you are trying to achieve here - but it's not a tactic I usually play. When it comes to objective games I rarely camp the objectives and rely on better manoureabilty to catch or contest them in the final turns. It doesn't always work, but I just prefer to kick people of objectives rather than defend them.

 

[eris]

it's not neccessarily about defending them, it's more about containment. if you drop this type of unit on someones base/objective in their deployment zone in say turn 2.. they tend to not move out as much and instead sit around trying to kill it.

lets say it arrives turn 2, the WS gets popped. turn 3 they fire on the wraithguard, dont expect the wraithguard to actually survive, so when they do they have to commit more resources to killing them. certainly in my play circles it seems people dont see wraithguard much, so the reality of that T6 comes as a bit of a surprise.

perhaps people will adapt after facing it for the 1st time, but they're still going to have to deal with that unit at some point and that buys turns for my council, fire dragons and prisms to do what they do. the real purpose is to turn those guns in one direction and slow my opponents movement, keep the majority of their army static as they deal with this threat in their deployment zone.

 

[eris]

rolled these dudes out again tonight, yriel, 5 wguard and an enhancement lock. got charged by 5 IG ogryn. i majorly failed yriels saves, rolling 3 1s in the first round of combat, losing combat and 2 wraithguard along with him. that left 3 wguard and the lock standing, who proceeded to win the next few rounds of combat, slowly putting wounds on the ogryn and eventually cutting them down on turn 5.

while i'm sure an 11 man seer council with fortune up would have destroyed the ogryn, probably without losing a model, it's amazing how few saves you have to make with a toughness 6 squad.