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The Pacifist Wargamer
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Since this is just the nature of Privateer Press Games, I figure this would actually be a pretty useful thread: a little repository of known 'EZ-Win' lists. Players would do well to recognize them and know how to defeat them. If anyone knows any, please list them here, along with tips on how they can be beaten.

I'll start off with the now-classic, "Madrak Trollkin Brick"

This takes advantage of Madrak Ironhide's Surefoot spell (no one gets knocked down) and all the Infantry buffs that the Trollkin can bring to bear to create a very tightly packed clump of very dead'ard Trolls.

It's usually comprised of:
- Madrak Ironhide
- Troll Impaler
- Pyre Troll
- Trollkin Champions
- Fell Caller
- Krielstone Bearer with Scribes

It's easily recognizable as a very tightly packed bunch of very angry Trollkin. It marches forward, slowly, in one large infantry-based "Brick", weathering most any storm until it closes and attacks under the Influence of Madrak's Guided Hand spell, Madrak's Crusher feat and the Fell Caller's War Cry buff. At this point, the Champions do an absurd amount of damage.

It's weaknesses, and the means to defeat it, come from its lack of Beasts, and, thus, the means to turn off Madrak's Fury stream. Also...the list is SLOW. Pretty much anything moves faster than the Brick, so shooting it to bits and darting out of the way works really well.

Circle, in particular, can use their superior mobility and their means to alter the battlefield itself to slow the Trolls down even further.
 

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My buddy runs a brick. It's kinda fun to pick it apart, and draw pieces off little by little, and crush them. Speed and two handed throws tend to get the job done, and since I play legion I simply ignore everything he has and fly over his stuff, stabbing his caster in the chest with my angelius. Or charge a carni and assault. Or reindeer him to death. Or blight bringer. Or....well, you get the point. The trick seems to be just give him something to charge with the champs. Once they are out of the way, blitz the hole.


Another easier to play army is the saeryn seraph harrier blight bringer list.
Long ranged attacks, throws, and reach tend to help with that, along with a little focus camping depending on the faction played.
 

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resident iconoclast
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791 Posts
I run a brick and I only lost with it once ;).

Course, mine is this:

Madrak
Champions
Champions
Impaler
Impaler
Axer

Another classic (on the Hordes side) is the Seraphspam, with

Lylyth
and lots of Seraphs.

The key is to use Lylyth's feat, which makes your Seraphs very accurate, and shoot the warlock as many times as you can all in one go. With extra dice on your attack rolls, you've got reasonable odds of hitting, you can spend your fury on boosting your damage, and strafe gets you a fair chunk of extra shots. They're manueverable enough to get into position, and Eyeless sight makes it hard to protect the 'lock from them effectively.

It's a pretty good list, all and all.
 

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The Pacifist Wargamer
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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
The Madrak Brick has a 50-50 shot of winning in my area because it suffered from massive overexposure and the local metagame developed to counter it.

A couple of Xerxis lists developed to counter it. A Cataphract-heavy list with Xerxis' Feat can crash into the Brick head on and break it.
 

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Or there was the beauty that was Edenny (IIRC) taking over a unit of champions after they were cursed, and proceeding to kill his army off piece by piece with his own unit.
 

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resident iconoclast
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791 Posts
Yeah, Denny is pretty hilarious in all her incarnations.

Ultimately the brick isn't all that good. It's slow and lacks a good kill. It's too easy to ping to death. My success with it has come mostly against people who just don't have the patience or sense to play properly against it.

Ultimately, though, no Hordes army really stands up to the top-tier Warmachine lists (though I'm reasonably confident that EDenny doesn't actually fall into that catagory) and, unless Evolution really shook stuff up, there just wasn't a very reliable win-button in Hordes--which is how it should be.

Primal was a very well designed book. Far, far better than Prime. The experience they'd gained since their debut was well evidenced.

Now if only they'd figure out that making new units to hose existing over-powered units isn't a good way to engender balance...
 

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things will change
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Something else that is fairly powerful (but not hugely, as everything, it has significant weaknesses) is Woldwarden spam combined with Krueger.
2 or 3 Wardens plus Krueger is a lot of POW12 arcing shots...
A couple of units of shifting stones to heal them up, and job's a good 'un.

As LOW says though, Primal is significantly more balanced than Prime, and it really does seem that PP have created a superior game all round, at least in my opinion.

"Win-button" lists are, at the end of the day, and in my opinion, utterly dull.
While some people may enjoy constantly winning with little-to-no thought, I personally find that the enjoyment of a game mainly comes from out-thinking and out-playing (and occasionally out-lucking!) my opponent, making your units work how you want them to, whilst preventing your opponents from doing the same...

Win or loose, I tend to enjoy a game if it is hard fought, and cool stuff happened in it. Warpwolves tearing Titans apart in a single turn is undeniabley cool, and I suspect both players can enjoy the mental image...

After all, it's a game, not a competition.

I can see that this may (in some people's eyes) completely 'disregard' Page 5, but I don't see it like that. Page 5 is (as I read it) about playing no-holds-barred, not complaining about things you didn't anticipate.
"We come to beat down – deliver it with gusto or take it like a trooper. There is glory in both as long as you've got the rocks."

-t.
 

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The Pacifist Wargamer
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1,512 Posts
Discussion Starter · #8 ·
"Superior" is a loaded term, but I agree with you in that Hordes was designed by a team that has had more experience in constructing and balancing games. Perhaps it's just because Hordes is the younger game, or perhaps because of "superior" design (probably both reasons) there seem to be fewer Insta-win lists in Hordes as there are in Warmachine. For a while in WM, it would seem like there was a new killer list that everyone would play, and abandon once it was solved.

Moreover, Hordes factions don't suffer from as much of the "must-have unit" syndrome. Units within factions are balanced a bit better so a player of faction X is not crippled if he or she doesn't include unit Y in their list. I know in my Protectorate list, I started out right away knowing I would need a Choir and a full unit of Zealots.

Also, Krueger Lightning Spam is nasty, and particularly evil against Warmachine lists. It trashes Infantry and Cortices equally.
 

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resident iconoclast
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791 Posts
I dunno. For me, the 'win button' hasn't really changed at all since Prime. I've included two new units in my Haley list, the centurion and gunmage captain, but the core mechanics have been there from the beginning. Temporal Barrier and Smoke and Long Gunners. It's an absurdely powerful list, and it was complete in Prime.

Prime had some serious design flaws. Trenchers are way on the top of the list, honestly. Just look how many thing have been released since then which have little purpose beyond hosing smoke lines.
 

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Senior Member
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867 Posts
I had a LOT of fun with this list, especially my opponent's expression when he sees it on the table.


-Lylith
-Carnivean
-Carnivean
-Carnivean
-Warmonger x3

=500 points. :)

One asked "How are you going to control Fury?"
I replied "I'm not!" :D

-981
 
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