[Kronus_Lord]

Was thinking about using this fellow (for his Enhanced Warriors, not so much him himself) and was wondering if people have experience with him and how well he performs?

As I said, not so much interested in the guy himself. No invulnerable save and no power weapon makes him pretty meh. At best, he will probably just stick inside a Marine unit and lend what little support he can. I am mainly interested in taking him for his Enhanced Warriors rule. The fact that he is cheaper than my normal HQ units doesn't hurt either.

Since I play infantry-only, I was thinking about just taking a horde of Marines. Two squads of Berserkers and four squads of Enhanced Warriors will probably make up the core of the army, with Raptors/Obliterators/Chosen etc for support.

I'm wondering what marks (if any) to give the Marines though. To be honest, Khorne, Slaanesh and Nurgle all seem like they would work pretty well in combination with EW's. Fearless Marines with strength 5 or 6, and 3 attacks base? Yes please. Or how about Fearless Marines with strength 5 or 6 PLUS iniative or toughness 5?

I just cant help but think EW's plus Icons can make some nasty combinations.

 

[tanfew]

Sounds like a fun army, but in an army that is already expensive, you don't want to be paying for points for a random chance of killing your own men, and a Lord who is overpriced yet only a supporting role. If you take into the account of say, ten men, enhanced, 2 plasma, asp champ with power fist and a rhino, and Icon of Slaanesh, it starts to add up alot quickly (i believe thats about 295 points off hand for just the squad) and think of what else you could buy for that, 5 termis with combi plasma, they have 2 standard attacks, power weapons, a 2+ armour save, teleport and one turn of Combi Plasma death.

You would definitely need to be careful how you played with an Enhanced army, as you will be out numbered and out gunned by even other Chaos Marines, and may struggle a fair bit to make back points. I mean from a fluffy point of view i think its brilliant, Fabius Bringing his choson Enhanced monsters along with a few of his experiments (IE say a squad of possessed or oblits) to lay waste to the opponent so he can study his new potion or whatever in a practical manner, and would definitely be fun to convert up some enhanced Marines i reckon xD

Edit: and your right, they do make for a pretty nasty uhnit with the Icons happening. One last thing, you would have to watch out for lost combats as you will have to take armour saves because your men are all fearless :-S

 

[Rabbit]

Fabius himself isn't actually all that horrible if you're up against swarms. He's also an ok character hunter, since he Instant Kills anything wounded by him in close combat (Rod of Torment). However, the only reason for taking him over our other superior HQ options is for his Enhanced Warriors; so you're on the right track so far.

Cost-wise, you might consider the IoS. It effectively gives Enhanced CSMs a permanent Furious Charge. Also, it's cheap. For our standard 10 man squad, it only runs 295, which really isn't *that* bad. Compare, for example, the following:

Chaos Space Marine Squad- 255
*10x CSMs with Glory Icon
**2x meltas
**1x champ with fist
*1x rhino

Chaos Space Marine Squad with Enhanced Warrior- 295
*10x CSMs with Icon of Slaanesh
**2x meltas
**1x champ with fist
*1x rhino

On the charge, the regular CSM will statistically kill 5.5 MEQs at I4, whereas the Enhanced Warriors will knock off 6.4 at I5. The elevated initiative conferred by Slaanesh also functions as a defensive buffer, since it allows your fellows "first strike," thus reducing the retaliatory attacks of the enemy. So, while the Enhanced Warriors mechanic is really only adding one more wound against enemy MEQs, at the same time, it's going off at I5. Now, against swarms, on the other hand, Enhanced Warriors is down right brutal.

Still, that doesn't exactly compete with our 8 man zerker squad, which kills on the charge 7.5 marines at I5. Although, zerkers lose much of their close combat finesse post-assault, or if they are themselves charged. I kind of look at our Enhanced Warriors as a hybrid unit, since they're superior in close combat to basic marines, and yet still possess all the armory options that allow them to be a renaissance unit.

EDIT: Calculating Bile's effectiveness as a model can be somewhat hairy. He's nothing special on his own, and in order to make his Enhanced Warriors boost cost-effective, you really have to take a lot of CSMs. So, how do you determine the right amount? If we look at our previous codex (3rd edition), we can gain a little insight into the approximate cost of a +1S, which our champions can purchase for 5 points. Then, there's Fearless to consider, which for Chaos, I can't value more than a point per model. In most scenarios, the Glory Icon is actually better, especially with Ld10. Therefore, by my tally, Enhanced Warrior is worth about 6 points. However, we pay only 3 points, plus the initial cost of Bile. Doing the math, it means we need around 50 Enhanced Warriors in order to break even, assuming Bile's cost is factored into the equation.

 

[tanfew]

Ouch. . .50 marines? I agree he's okay against swarm, and his FnP makes him surprisingly resilient, but a Lord Character that allows armour saves, hits at the same time as normal Marines and costs more than a Vindicator isn't going to do well against much else IMO, too many better choices. I mean, hes a really sweet looking model though xD no doubt about that, but not being able to deal with MeQ makes him pretty wasted; though i would really like to see him poke a Carnifex in the face and it implode because of a pin prick >;>

Also, your forgetting theres a 1/3 chance of your models killing themselves at the start of the game or several dudes throughout the match because of the unstalbe effects, so the achilles heel of the army is that taking more guys will give more of a chance of them dying, thus lowering their effectiveness because you took alot to pay for Fabius. xD its a pretty nasty catch 22. I mean, imagine a squad camping on an objective only to lose a model every turn, for 7 turns, i mean all it takes is a few shots and the squad is completely gone. And since you roll after set up, that means the squad you carefully hid with the hardest to get to objective could just get whittled to nothing in the match. Not fun :-S But, thats what makes it so fun to play, the sheer randomness of your models turning into cannibalistic scary-men and dominating would make it all worth it xD

 

[Rabbit]

Also, your forgetting theres a 1/3 chance of your models killing themselves at the start of the game or several dudes throughout the match because of the unstalbe effects, so the achilles heel of the army is that taking more guys will give more of a chance of them dying, thus lowering their effectiveness because you took alot to pay for Fabius. xD its a pretty nasty catch 22. I mean, imagine a squad camping on an objective only to lose a model every turn, for 7 turns, i mean all it takes is a few shots and the squad is completely gone.

There's a 1/6 chance an Enhanced Warrior will go into Berzerker Rage. Of those, there's a 1/3 chances he will die. So from this, only 1/18 marines will perish from a roll of '1.' Continuing, Kronos plans on fielding 4 units of Enhanced Warriors, which means there's a 67% chance that one of those squads will be affected by "Created a Monster." Six rounds of this mechanic = 6 dead marines. However, with a 67% probability, Kronos statistically loses only loses 4 marines per game. Hence, giving your CSMs Enhanced Warrior doesn't result in the loss of 1/3 of the models, but around 1/6.

Look, I'm not saying Bile is worth it, but only that he's not as bad as some might think.

And since you roll after set up, that means the squad you carefully hid with the hardest to get to objective could just get whittled to nothing in the match. Not fun :-S But, thats what makes it so fun to play, the sheer randomness of your models turning into cannibalistic scary-men and dominating would make it all worth it xD

It's true, and one of the many reasons Bile is seldom fielded. Although, I have to wonder why anyone would keep an Enhanced Warrior as an objective sitting. Really, it makes no sense

 

[tanfew]

ah, i just assumed that a one in three chance of something bad happening, and the rolls you do after are then a different percentile, so the 1/3 thng means, if you rolled a one before, three marines will die (on average), and on the six roll, you'll lose 6 men to it, one per your turn, so if a single bad round of shooting or combat happens, then the unit dies and its either a free objective/ free kill point / free consolidation move etc xD

xD yeah i know it doesn't make sencs lols, but someone has to do it in objective based missions unfortunately (found this out in a recent Word Bearers match, charged them forward only for the Wave Serpant to camp on my own objective with a squad of Banshees inside and a squad of dire avengers force marcing up my flank) xD. One last thing i didn't notice beofer, fabius is str 5, changes tihngs a little bit, not much though. And am i right in noticing he doesn't have an inv save?

 

[Rabbit]

Right, no inv save. FNP is some compensation for this. Still, no inv save...

 

[Kaptin Elwazz]

There's a 1/6 chance an Enhanced Warrior with go into Berzerker Rage. Of those, there's a 1/3 chances he will die. So from this, only 1/18 marines will perish from a roll of '1.' Continuing, Kronos plans on fielding 4 units of Enhanced Warriors, which means there's a 67% chance that one of those squads will be affected by "Created a Monster." Six rounds of this mechanic = 6 dead marines. However, with a 67% probability, Kronos statistically loses only loses 4 marines per game. Hence, giving your CSMs Enhanced Warrior doesn't result in the loss of 1/3 of the models, but around 1/6.

Look, I'm not saying Bile is worth it, but only that he's not as bad as some might think.



It's true, and one of the many reasons Bile is seldom fielded. Although, I have to wonder why anyone would keep an Enhanced Warrior as an objective sitting. Really, it makes no sense

WOW!
That was lots of mathematics!

but what I realy would say (as not a Daemon prince but an evil boyscout):
- why not only three EW squads and the rest ~290 pts go for Lesser daemons? You can have 20+ of them for those points and they don`t take a slot, can hold the objective - see above - and an other boost to the model count. :O

ps.: and they are fearless...


And more thought!

Why Meltaguns? What about flamers? I know with S+1 they actually can penetrate armour but i think they are supposed to be cc monsters, aren`t they? With two flamers they maybe can beat the zerkers in their little competition. What do You Daemon Princes think?

 

[Rabbit]

WOW!
Why Meltaguns? What about flamers? I know with S+1 they actually can penetrate armour but i think they are supposed to be cc monsters, aren`t they? With two flamers they maybe can beat the zerkers in their little competition. What do You Daemon Princes think?

It comes down to preference. Sadely, in my neck of the woods, we only have MEQ players, which means that I'll always choose meltas and/or plasmas over flamers. However, if you see a decent number of orc hordes, then the flamer is a solid choice.

For a renaissance unit, meltas are very popular, simply because they allow your marines to decisively manage enemy armor, which, in the mech-environment of today, is perhaps the most vital element of the game.

 

[Skarsgard]

Around here he is referred to as "Fabulous Pile.."

I really don't think he is a good choice, trying to make a list around him to try and get some benefit is frought with peril. You risk running a very poor list.

 

[Nhyx]

I've had both successes and horrible failures using Fabius. He's kinda like running the 3 demon prince/tally chaos demon list. If you get the lucky roll, you win, if you don't, you get massacred...

It's safer to not use him.

 

[DaemonThor]

Around here he is referred to as "Fabulous Pile.."

I really don't think he is a good choice, trying to make a list around him to try and get some benefit is frought with peril. You risk running a very poor list.

all army lists have the potential to fail. no matter how "infallible" the lists, the dice gods are fickle and delight in the ruin of gamers. (which of course adds to the fun )

i say go for it. if you fail hard enough it can be a winning fail, and you could still win epically with the lists proposed