[Jgroover]

I've been playing chaos for a while now and I am feeling really restricted by our FoC. And yes I know it's meant to be a restriction but I feel like it especially this way with chaos. The reason I say this is because all of our good units are located in the HQ, Troops, and Heavy slots; our elite and fast attack (especially fast) just aren't as good as most other armies. This is a large obstacle for list creation, especially if you want to include a land raider, since we can't even take those as a dedicated transport. Out of the elite and fast attack sections the only worthwhile units are chosen and terminators, neither of which you want to take a lot of and neither of which is that exciting. Does anyone else feel this way? Does anyone ever use anything out of fast attack?

 

[andyrew]

Hi there,
We have some of the best troop choices in 40K and at a limit of 6 I don't see how this is a restriction.
I you were to field more than 2 HQ choices, (I assume that you are refering to the fantastic daemon prince) then there would be no fun in the game as your army would be too over powered.
Heavy support, I can see how this can be restrictive, however the same goes here as with the HQ choice.
You can field a land raider as a dedicated transport for a squad of terminators, similar to a battle waggon for group of Nobz.
To field these high cost items then you are slimming down your objective holding units. Also a kitted unit of troops with and icon, fist and Rhino is heading towards 250 point mark.

A copy of you list and and your potential opponents would be useful to provide some suggestions.

Andyrew...

 

[Jgroover]

Wow I did not notice that, and have been told that, chaos can't take dedicated LR transports. Shows me for not reading all the terminator description text. My main complaint is that there aren't many good options in our Elite and Fast Attack slots forcing us to rely heavily on our HQ's Troops and Heavy choices, all of which are very powerful but still limiting.

 

[HybridChaos]

My main complaint is that there aren't many good options in our Elite and Fast Attack slots forcing us to rely heavily on our HQ's Troops and Heavy choices, all of which are very powerful but still limiting.

You're right our Elites and Fast Attack choices are extremely poor. However we compensate for it extremely well with one of the cheapest and most powerful HQ's. Most versatile and unique troop choices and hardcore Heavy Support. We do need a few changes to Elite/FA slots, some things that arn't game breaking. However there is plenty more armies out there with a more desperate need of fixing before it's our turn again.

For Elites we have possesed. They're worse than beserkers, and worse than Thousand Sons, but some kind of confused mix of the two depending which icon you give them. And again it's down to chance if these guys get a pathetic 'scout' rule or a 'power weapon' rule. They can be a good idea to some lists so don't rule them out.

Dreadnought's, if it wern't for the crazed rule - would be fine. Overall too risky

Terminators - worse than the loyalists, less options. However a small squad of MoS+LCs or a karmoon special arn't too rare in some Chaos lists. So they are an option.

The Fast Attack choice's are less optimistic to say the least, I don't even want to talk about Bikes. Yes we can make them t4(6) but at such a high points cost it is never worth it.

One of my lists does include a 5 man squad of Raptors, 2 melta guns, and thats it. A very cheap unit with a clear objective of popping a tank, once complete, jobs done.

Overall you are right in what you're saying, we are limited by the FoC, but rather than it being because our Elite/FA slots are awful; it's because our HQ/Troop/HS is so good

 

[Playa]

Hey,

one of the cheapest and most powerful HQ's

Um, every competitive CSM list has the exact same HQ.
This has nothing to do with its being cheap or powerful ...

Want 3HQs? Take 2x Lash and a GGD. Done.

Most versatile and unique troop choices

Oh, yes, so varied. Your choice: Mech Zerkers or Plague Marines.
Everything else is an also-ran except Lesser Daemons.
This is because GLDs are not even in the running.

hardcore Heavy Support

Again, such infinite variety: 4+ Blits or 3 Vin.
Nothing else can hold a candle.

We do need a few changes to Elite/FA slots

With the 2007 Gavdex, one could not build a competitive IW or AL list that played any differently -or indeed used any different units- than a NL or WB list. However, at the time, Chaos was not utterly useless against other v3/3.5/4 lists. When GW later released its v5 win-button (i.e. Imperial) dexes, there was simply no longer any incentive to play with a list limited to two builds that now yielded - at best - second-tier armies.

"Needs a few changes" indeed.
The OP's "FOC trap" is just the tip of the Fail Iceberg.


Playa

 

[Rabbit]

Um, every competitive CSM list has the exact same HQ.
This has nothing to do with its being cheap or powerful ...

Being cheap and powerful is exactly why people chose the prince. Why else?

On that note, there are actually a couple variances:

1) Lash
2) Warp Time (with any elligible mark)

Oh, yes, so varied. Your choice: Mech Zerkers or Plague Marines.
Everything else is an also-ran except Lesser Daemons.

HybridChaos said versatile, not varried

Again, such infinite variety: 4+ Blits or 3 Vin.
Nothing else can hold a candle.

Defiler comes to mind. It consistently outclasses the vindi in its supporting roles in the majority of sanctioned tournaments. That's three solid choices. Not bad for an outdated 'dex.

 

[Ghost of Rage]

Um, every competitive CSM list has the exact same HQ.
This has nothing to do with its being cheap or powerful ...

Again, such infinite variety: 4+ Blits or 3 Vin.
Nothing else can hold a candle.

With the 2007 Gavdex, one could not build a competitive IW or AL list that played any differently -or indeed used any different units- than a NL or WB list. However, at the time, Chaos was not utterly useless against other v3/3.5/4 lists. When GW later released its v5 win-button (i.e. Imperial) dexes, there was simply no longer any incentive to play with a list limited to two builds that now yielded - at best - second-tier armies.

I agree whole heartedly with Rabbit on this one, our Daemon Princes are cheap, and powerful (considering pretty well all other armies consider Lash of Submission overpowered) which is the reason everyone takes them. Same goes for our heavies choice, the Defiler is by far the best heavy slot choice we have as it doesn't need to get within meltagun or powerfist range to fire it's blast weapon and can actually partake in CC, trading blows with your opponent.

As for playing with an army with only "two builds", I just recently took first place at a tournement a few weeks ago, going undefeated against such books as new Tyranids, new Space Marines and new Space Wolves, with a fluffy World Eaters list that contained no Lash of Submission or Warp Time and included a Chaos Dread. I have a very firm belief that if you put any army (I'm talking Dark Eldar and Necrons here too) in the right hands, a second or third tier army can still trump a first tier army.

 

[Wolf Guard]

Terminators - worse than the loyalists, less options. However a small squad of MoS+LCs or a karmoon special arn't too rare in some Chaos lists. So they are an option.

Our Terminators were meant to be used in a different way than loyalist termies. There is a reason ours cost 35 points w/ a Combi Weapon. It is meant to deep strike in and murder a tank. Although, as you said, the MoS with Lightning Claw squad is very effective.

I have a very firm belief that if you put any army (I'm talking Dark Eldar and Necrons here too) in the right hands, a second or third tier army can still trump a first tier army.

Seconded. The armies "Tier" rating means very little in the hand of a skilled player.

 

[aeroplane]

Addressing the original post, I completely agree that our FOC is thoroughly limiting.

The biggest problem of the Gav Thorpe fail-'Dex is a complete lack of good ranged anti-tank in the elite slots. This is a huge handicap in the era of 5th edition Mech armies.

Because of the excesses of the previous Codex, there were a number of huge Nerfs handed to the current Chaos players, one of the biggest was removing Obliterators from the Elite slots. If Oblits were Elites and 0-1, there would be much less complaining.

The other glaring problem is the 'Crazed' rule on our Dreadnoughts. It is an extremely fluffy rule that game designers get their self-love over, but for the players, it completely blows. If there was an option to remove the 'Crazed' rule for 15 points, then there would be a bunch of people running dreads because they could actually be controlled! But as they utterly suck in the current rules, and you prettymuch have to use 3 in order to have any useful control of them, they are a poor choice that nobody uses.

Here is a novel idea that would sell lots of models -- Make a plastic Chaos Dread kit (because the 15 year old metal sculpt still sucks, just like when it was new) and drop 'Crazed'. Dreadnoughts would sell like hotcakes!!

 

[RedRaven]

Hi, before I begin to ramble on got a couple of quick questions - can't figure out a couple of the abbreviations used in the discussion.

GGD ? LGD ? MoS+LC ?

Its been a long day and my brain refuses to cooperate. Bet its pretty obvious too!


Got to agree with aeroplane about the Dreadnought, the metal model is uglier than an Ork in a dress, and the 'crazed' rule doesn't help. Sure they are cheaper the SM dreads but that's no real consolation. It's the only thing stopping me from collecting a Damnators Assault force apocalypse formation with the Nurgle dreads from forge world. Dreads, Plasma pistols and guns, Daemon weapons and the Sorcerer are all forbidden in my army. Using anything that has even the smallest chance of wounding or killing my troops is a crazy.

When it comes to the FoC would happily trade the 2nd HQ and all 3 FA slots for one more ET and HS option. Bikes don't fit with the overall theme and not really keen on the Raptor figures even though the newest ones are far better than the models they replaced. Can't really see any new and amazing FA troops coming out for CSM either so those 3 slots are no good to me.

Terminators and Chosen are my preferred Elites, the plastic terminators are that nice ended up making 2 units of regular and a 3rd squad with the Nurgle resin. So that's 3 ET already, on top of that have 2 Chosen squads built and ideas for a couple more. Same goes for HS units with a Defiler, Vindicator, Havoc squad and Predator.

Its probably for the best that I hate the Obliterator models otherwise they would give me a 5th HS to choose between. I understand and agree with aeroplane about Oblits being 0-1 ET. As either ET or HS they would simply offer more dilemmas over what to use. And they will never become an FA choice so still stuck.

In some ways I really like the FoC. Without it any codex becomes a power-gamers playground. One possibly way it could be tweaked is if the 0-3 limit for ET, FA and HS was changed to maybe 0-8 from any with a 0-3 limit placed on each option, this would prevent people going mad and fielding 8 terminator units or 8 tanks, it would soon cease to be an enjoyable past-time with out some sort of balance. Be a bit like playing chess against some one with queens instead of pawns!

 

[aeroplane]

GGD ? LGD ? MoS+LC ?

The first 2, Greater Summoned Daemon and Lesser Summoned Daemon, were incorrectly abbreviated. GSD and LSD would be more correct, however those abbreviations are rarely used...

MoS - Mark of Slaanesh (And therefore you also have MoK (Khorne) MoN (Nurgle) MoT (you see where this is going) and the wildcard, MoCG (Chaos Glory))

+LC Lightning Claws

 

[RedRaven]

Cheers for that, thought the GGD + LGD probably referred to daemons. Also thought LC was Las-cannon!

Forgot to mention that my HQ is a Lord in Terminator armour, briefly considered using a Daemon prince but lack of options put me off, prefer the HS version in the Daemon codex, shame really that it's not a HQ option there.


On a bit of a tangent - Can understand why they have not done but CSM + CD would of been interesting and more varied if they had used the same set-up as the previous release of WFB Hordes + Beasts of chaos books where you could include options from both books in a single army. Been a while since seen the books but as far as can recall it was a little similar to how the allies selection works for GK/SoB.

Kind of shame that CSM only have generic GSD/LSD rules no matter what figures they use. My plan was to use converted Dryads as LSD as I have a small CD force that I'm building as allies to my CSM.

 

[Wolf Guard]

On a bit of a tangent - Can understand why they have not done but CSM + CD would of been interesting and more varied if they had used the same set-up as the previous release of WFB Hordes + Beasts of chaos books where you could include options from both books in a single army. Been a while since seen the books but as far as can recall it was a little similar to how the allies selection works for GK/SoB.

This is how the CSM and Daemons codex should be, but sadly arn't. I mean, you can take allies it's just not the same as a Guard army taking Grey Knights.