Librarium Online Forums banner
Status
Not open for further replies.
1 - 20 of 183 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
125 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Just having a rules discussion with some friends etc, and i am of the opinion that you cannot fleet after disembarking from a vehicle that has moved, they of course have the opposite idea. What is the general consensus of LO ?
 

·
Dark Eldar Zealot
Joined
·
3,699 Posts
To me it's like the deepstriking rationale.

If the vehicle moved, no fleet.

Hi Mate,
It has been FAQed in the past that fleeting is perfectly legal due to the fact that fleet replaces an allowable shooting phase and is not dependant on using or substituting anything from the movement phase.

In other words if you are allowed to shoot you can fleet.

Page 62 in the BGB makes mention of allowing shooting and thus allows fleet.

The “move far enough only to deploy” phase only pertains to the movement phase.

Cheers.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,023 Posts
wicky, it has not been FAQ'd to allow fleeting after, and many rules have been faq'd in to read as such (namely the tau FAQ for 4th).

There is no way to prove that the "no move" refers only to the movement phase, as rules apply to all phases unless otherwise stated.

Otherwise I could assault through impassable terrain, fleet out and into transports, fleet through friendlies......

In short, the rules don't allow you to fleet after riding in a moved vehicle, as fleet is classed as ADDITIONAL MOVEMENT, so no movement = no movement.

That all said, some people can't figure out how to make an army list work without such an unfair advantage, so you may wish to talk it out pregame with them (namely DE players).

But straight rules, it's a no go.

And the if you can shoot= you can fleet isn't true, look at genestealers=) BS 0 means no chance to shoot.
 

·
Dark Eldar Zealot
Joined
·
3,699 Posts
wicky, it has not been FAQ'd to allow fleeting after, and many rules have been faq'd in to read as such (namely the tau FAQ for 4th).

There is no way to prove that the "no move" refers only to the movement phase, as rules apply to all phases unless otherwise stated.

Otherwise I could assault through impassable terrain, fleet out and into transports, fleet through friendlies......

In short, the rules don't allow you to fleet after riding in a moved vehicle, as fleet is classed as ADDITIONAL MOVEMENT, so no movement = no movement.

That all said, some people can't figure out how to make an army list work without such an unfair advantage, so you may wish to talk it out pregame with them (namely DE players).

But straight rules, it's a no go.

And the if you can shoot= you can fleet isn't true, look at genestealers=) BS 0 means no chance to shoot.

Hi again,
Now Tarzen are you going to force me to search for one of your previous posts that said you agreed with me?

And from “darkeldarqaa.pdf” from Games Workshop it states -
Q. It seems a model could indeed move in his transport, get out 2”, then fleet of foot, then assault - any problem there?
A. This is perfectly legal because the move/disembark take place in the Movement phase and the fleet of foot is in the Shooting phase.


And the original question was about disembarking followed by fleet and since disembarking is classed as movement the “additional” movement of fleet is allowed if shooting is allowed.
You move 2” from disembarking then you add a D6” to it, simple.

So as straight rules go it’s a yes, yes to the question.

But seriously you got me with the “additional” bit back there and it’s just that I have never seen fleet done without some sort of movement done first as its just plain logic that you want as much movement as possible when doing all of this.

Cheers.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,023 Posts
couple of things-the Q&A is from EARLY third edition. not even an FAQ, which means nadda these days.

2-sorry mate, never agreed that DE could do this, I promise that.

3-the rules for moving after disembarking are crystal clear, "you may move no further than the 2" to disembark.". Pretty much says it all=)

4-Again, movement is movement, no matter when it is done. Being able to shoot doesn't mean you can fleet, nor ignore other rules. If you are pinned, you can't fleet, if you are immobile, you can't fleet.

Anyways, not trying to hash it out, just pointing out where the current rules lay. This may change in 5th.
 

·
Dark Eldar Zealot
Joined
·
3,699 Posts
couple of things-the Q&A is from EARLY third edition. not even an FAQ, which means nadda these days.

2-sorry mate, never agreed that DE could do this, I promise that.

3-the rules for moving after disembarking are crystal clear, "you may move no further than the 2" to disembark.". Pretty much says it all=)

4-Again, movement is movement, no matter when it is done. Being able to shoot doesn't mean you can fleet, nor ignore other rules. If you are pinned, you can't fleet, if you are immobile, you can't fleet.

Anyways, not trying to hash it out, just pointing out where the current rules lay. This may change in 5th.


Hi again,
1. Now I have proven that this question been adequately addressed in the past and since the rules for disembarking and fleeting haven’t changed THAT much it does show precedent.
2. My memory for this kind of reply is pretty good so bear with me while I do a search but I can quote a very similar debate between you and “Danceman” that ended in disembark /fleet being accepted. (My Internet time whilst at whist at work is very limited!)
3. The rules for disembarking are exactly that – Rules for Disembarking. I am not questioning this at all; it’s the use of fleet after this. Fleet is a Universal Special Rule and as such carries the ability to override core rules so arguing core rules as a form of denial wont help here.
4. Movement is not just movement as a general term. There is movement in the movement phase and this is what is referred to in the Disembarking Rules and I quote “Models can only voluntarily embark or disembark in the movement phase.” (Page 62) There is obviously movement in the shooting phase, commonly called Fleet and there is movement in the assault phase commonly called a “charge.” So when it states, “Move far enough only to deploy” this refers to the last amount of travel allotted to you after vehicular movement – the whole act being in the movement phase. The last sentence of that rule allows the act of shooting, does it not? This goes outside of the movement phase and is not part of the embark/disembark rules. It also allows assault if opened topped and doesn’t this also involve movement? Pinning has nothing to do with this one so why bring it up?

Anyway the game as played does allow the disembark/fleet combination, in every tournament I have seen or read about allows it, maybe some you have seen don’t but from a 4th Ed view point there is an allowance to disembark in the movement phase and an allowance to shoot in the shooting phase that can be substituted with Fleet as additional movement or travel.

If pushed I will find those old posts but I shouldn’t need to, Cheers.
 

·
Sparta!
Joined
·
1,438 Posts
I'm with wicky on this one. Fleet is a move that substitutes shooting - if something denies shooting then fleet would be denied.

There is nothing in the core rules to disallow fleeting after one disembarks, show me a rule where it states that you can't and I'll agree, but until then...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,023 Posts
Hi again,
1. Now I have proven that this question been adequately addressed in the past and since the rules for disembarking and fleeting haven’t changed THAT much it does show precedent.
I can also show you precendent (from the same edition), that allowed blood angels to move 18" in a rhino, get out, and assault. If you would like to go there, you'll find it all in third edition. If you are talking about current rules, I would suggest using them, not third edition Q&As (again, not even FAQs)
2. My memory for this kind of reply is pretty good so bear with me while I do a search but I can quote a very similar debate between you and “Danceman” that ended in disembark /fleet being accepted. (My Internet time whilst at whist at work is very limited!)
Nah, if you'd like I can send you a few of the very very negative PMs I've got for pointing out that you CAN'T do this in 4th edition, but that you COULD IN THIRD.
3. The rules for disembarking are exactly that – Rules for Disembarking. I am not questioning this at all; it’s the use of fleet after this. Fleet is a Universal Special Rule and as such carries the ability to override core rules so arguing core rules as a form of denial wont help here.
and there is nothing in the fleet rule that says it ignores "Can't move further". It does specify one normal movement restriction it does overrule, which is no hinderance for moving through difficult terrain. All other rules for movement are still in place-no moving through friendlies, nor within 1" of enemies and all that.

4. Movement is not just movement as a general term. There is movement in the movement phase and this is what is referred to in the Disembarking Rules and I quote “Models can only voluntarily embark or disembark in the movement phase.” (Page 62) There is obviously movement in the shooting phase, commonly called Fleet and there is movement in the assault phase commonly called a “charge.” So when it states, “Move far enough only to deploy” this refers to the last amount of travel allotted to you after vehicular movement – the whole act being in the movement phase. The last sentence of that rule allows the act of shooting, does it not? This goes outside of the movement phase and is not part of the embark/disembark rules. It also allows assault if opened topped and doesn’t this also involve movement? Pinning has nothing to do with this one so why bring it up?
how about this wicky, how about if I stun your vehicle that happens to have all defensive weapons. Now, next turn you say I'm not moving so I can fire all my defensives- is that okay, since the specific rule for how many weapons you may fire is a special rule? how about a pinned MC, can it fire one gun, since it can fire 1 more than normal?
In short, there is nothing in the fleet rule that says it overrides any part of the disembark rules. Further, it clearly states that fleet is MOVEMENT.

Anyway the game as played does allow the disembark/fleet combination, in every tournament I have seen or read about allows it, maybe some you have seen don’t but from a 4th Ed view point there is an allowance to disembark in the movement phase and an allowance to shoot in the shooting phase that can be substituted with Fleet as additional movement or travel.
nah, it's a 3rd edition hangout that DE ABUSE. Plain and simple. If you claim that you can use, I claim I can fleet out of my vehicle (since it's instead of shooting right?), or fleet through impassable (since it's not normal movement), or through enemy models (see above). Many tourney organizers allow it because many don't know the rules. If you'd really like, i can show you the 8 rules I got changed in a national tourney by currecting what they had posted online pregame. Mind you, tourney organizers can set any rules they wish-show me in the bgb where it says only GW models and 3 different paints...

Not trying to come down on ya, just pointing out that many are confussed about the rules as they come from 3rd, and are no longer supported in fourth.
If pushed I will find those old posts but I shouldn’t need to, Cheers.
nah, but I will link if you'd like=)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
125 Posts
Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Well, still looks like you can't fleet after disembarking to me. Rules seem fairly clear on it. I'm sorry Wicky, but 3rd ed rules =/= 4th ed rules.
 

·
Firefly
Joined
·
4,209 Posts
I will revise my earlier stance.

Open topped vehicles, I am leaning towards, yes.
Non-open topped vehciles, I say, no.

Why? Because you can assault after getting out of an open topped vehicle and that is movement in my books.
 

·
LO Zealot
Joined
·
1,568 Posts
The way that the locals do it here (not claiming we're correct!) is that you can fleet after disembarking from open top but not closed vehicles.


3-the rules for moving after disembarking are crystal clear, "you may move no further than the 2" to disembark.". Pretty much says it all=)
Hm, well - going by this logic, you would not be able to assault out of an open top vehicle because assaulting implies moving to touch your target.




*edit* Doh, Skarsgard beat me to it!
 

·
Firefly
Joined
·
4,209 Posts
I have played in so many tournaments and none disallowed me of using fleet when dismarking because it is legal and your mouving to get of the vehicle and you are fleet instead of shooting
I really don't like this line of reasoning. I agree with Tarzen, I have seen some really weird stuff go down at tournaments and would never use a tourney experience as a basis for an arguement. Same goes for White Dwarf battle reports, those things are rife with errors.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,023 Posts
Well no, open topped vehicles and land raider have a specific rule to allow them to do it. Thats why they can.
This is exactly my point. The nonemovement part has a particular waiver, one VERY specific to the rule.

Again, for the record- Feel free to play it however you and your opponent agree, but realize the rules say it's a nono in this case.

As for tourneys, I've been told I have to disclose transport contents, even though the rule says i don't. Tourneys have in the past (fourth edition before FAQ2), allowed landspeeders that deepstruck to get SMF eventhough it's not in the rules. WYSIWYG ring a bell? Mind you, by all RTT/GT rules, it's a one way road=) Painting, citadel/gw only models. 50% or more GW stuff for conversions. Special missions. The list goes on.

Anyways, in a friendly game, i'd call me oppoonent out, tell him no, or if he insisted on playing it that way, i'd insist on redeploying my stuff. 6" for assault troops is huge when they already have up to 20" to assault from (26" with fleet).
 
  • Like
Reactions: Platypus and Moglun

·
Registered
Joined
·
72 Posts
It says p.62 of the rule book "Aftre dismarking models may shoot (couting as moving)..."

so they count as moving for shooting
so if fleet replaces shooting so its also (counting as moving) so hence can fleet
 

·
Dark Eldar Zealot
Joined
·
3,699 Posts
Tarzen, the rules for disembarking are entirely done in the movement phase so when it mentions “movement” it is in that phase only.

Whereas Fleet is entirely done in the shooting phase and has absolutely nothing to do with disembarking restrictions – the only qualifier is that it needs is to be “additional” movement and I have already given you credit for pointing that out to me.

If you really want to push the line of “may only move far enough to deploy” so hard it could well mean there’s no more movement left for the disembarking unit for the entire game because nothing says otherwise.
Now that of course is absurd so we are left with what that rule tells us as to which turn phase it applies to – the movement phase only.

Part of the problem here is semantics; the movement phase of the game should never have used the wording of “movement” to describe travel because movement exists in all phases of the game.

You seem to be applying the wordage of movement to do just this and cover all phases. But we are firstly discussing a rule in the movement phase – disembarking – and then moving on to different and almost entirely divorced stage of the game, that of shooting, and then moving on from that into a USR of fleet.

But it really takes no lesson in history to allow disembark and then fleet, they are in separate stages of the game and do not limit each other.

Cheers.
 

·
LO's Shadow Captain
Joined
·
12,783 Posts
It says p.62 of the rule book "Aftre dismarking models may shoot (couting as moving)..."

so they count as moving for shooting
so if fleet replaces shooting so its also (counting as moving) so hence can fleet
You're way off here. The "counting as moving" bit has to do with how their weapons are effected; i.e., rapid fire weapons go down to 12" range, heavy weapons cannot be fired, etc. You're taking that line way out of context.



 

·
Registered
Joined
·
134 Posts
It says p.62 of the rule book "Aftre dismarking models may shoot (couting as moving)..."

so they count as moving for shooting
so if fleet replaces shooting so its also (counting as moving) so hence can fleet
And saying that they can fleet because it replaces movement opens up a whole different can of worms...... if you're saying that you can fleet because you can shoot....... then next time i see some dire avengers that have bladestormed then on the next turn I ain't gonna allow them fleet!!!! :D
 
1 - 20 of 183 Posts
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top