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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
I had a giant who was marked with slaanesh(gives him ASF) get charged by a unit of graveguard with a vamp lord(equipped with nightshroud). As per the giant special attack I roll a D6 to see what he does before any targeting happens. I rolled "pick up and..." which has me target a model, gives the model 1 attack to defend, and if he fails I proceed and D6 the result. Nightshroud reads along the lines of any attack that targets a model loses charging bonus/asf.

The problem came in when I wanted to pick up his vamp lord and he argued that his graveguard and any models in base would be able to get their attacks in before i continued with my attack. My argument was that the attack had already happened before I targeted and that it would not stop the attack.

So what happens:
A) I proceed to finish my attack after the lord gets 1 attack to defend against it
B ) His models in base get to attack and then the lord gets 1 attack to defend against it
C) other - explain
 

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i am da Wahhchief
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I think you two should have made clear if nightshroud has effect BEFORE the giant made any rolls xD


Even though the giant makes very special attacks, the rule is clear on one thing: you decide which target you attack before you roll.
to determine the size of the target you have to know the target(s)
 

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My reading of the rules would say that you lost ASF. Therefore, all his models including the lord get there attacks. Then the lord would get one more attack to fend off the grab. Then you would get the giants attack.

By picking to attack the lord, you have given up ASF (you suddenly start moving really slowly). Therefore all the other models get to go before the giant.

My opinion,
SirKently
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
I think you two should have made clear if nightshroud has effect BEFORE the giant made any rolls xD


Even though the giant makes very special attacks, the rule is clear on one thing: you decide which target you attack before you roll.
to determine the size of the target you have to know the target(s
We came up with a reasonable solution of just having me target his wight king instead.

But I could make the argument that I could target the graveguard with my special attack, then roll "pick up and..." and for the ruling it says you select a model in base contact or touching a model in base contact with the giant. After all, the lord is part of the graveguard unit.
 

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But I could make the argument that I could target the graveguard with my special attack, then roll "pick up and..." and for the ruling it says you select a model in base contact or touching a model in base contact with the giant. After all, the lord is part of the graveguard unit.
I would certainly let that work. It really is a convoluted scenario, and I don't know that it has a definitive answer. Though I would still say that if you target the character with a nightshroud first, you would lose ASF.

SirKently
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
I would certainly let that work. It really is a convoluted scenario, and I don't know that it has a definitive answer. Though I would still say that if you target the character with a nightshroud first, you would lose ASF.

SirKently
I would have to agree, I dont think there really is any clear cut rule on this which is why we just decided to avoid it completely. Thanks for your input.
 

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i am da Wahhchief
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sorry to keep this running but i think its a tiny bit different then the outcome of this thread.

heres the theory, sorry it might be a bit tough to translate.

First off you declare the target to see what size you are attacking. This is not per say a unit, although it could be. If a goblin unit for example would contain a monster you would have to declare both the target unit and then either the monster or the infantry as target. If you do not dothis you have not obeyed the rule by the letter so far.

applying this to the graveguard+ vampire lord, you declare the graveguard as target and then either the lord OR other characters OR the gravegaurd. If not, then you could for example target both a monster and an infantry unit. Which would create gaps in this rule and impossible to use.

If after the roll you get to pick a model, the model has to be not only'in base contact' as stated later. it will also have to be part of the target that you chose, otherwise your breaking the earlier rule, not litterally but you will make it impossible to apply.



If i would play it your rule, you would be ending up stuffing dragons in your bag, because you didnt target him before, but did target him after the roll.


Basically:
Despite the rule saying "pick a model' after rolling, your target is actually declared before the roll. If you target the vampirelord as part of the unit, his nightshroud kicks in.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
I have never heard of a "large" sized model being able to be in a unit of "small" unit models(large/small according to the giant chart). In either case, you could probly treat these as 2 seperate units much like a hero on a dragon.

I guess to me it doesnt make sense to distribute non-existent attacks. It would be like saying if I rolled jump up and down that I couldnt distribute the 2d6 attacks to both the characters and the rest of the unit which also does not make sense to me.
 

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I would say the "Giants don't attack in the same way as other creatures" makes a loophole here, where the giant can declare his attacks against the unit and if he rolls a pick up and he can then go ahead and pick up anyone he wants. I mean are you really going to say the giant rolls for his attack and then has to wait for other people to attack first? That seems dumb to me. Sure you could still lose all your bonuses and ASF, but at that point it doesn't matter because you already attacked.
 
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