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Pedantic Englishman
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1,229 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Sorry if someone's already done this, but I see in the new BA codex, I don't know about the Dark Angels, that they've given Tactical Marines a Boltgun AND Bolt Pistol. WHY??? They changed the rapid fire rules for fourth ed partly to encourage SMs to actually shoot people with their boltguns, and encourage short-range firefights, etc, as you couldn't shoot a boltgun and charge in the same turn. But now they give them Bolt Pistols, doesn't it just compeltely remove the point of that rules change, for this army at least? Now you can just fire the bolt pistols in the turn you charge and go back to the old-fashioned way of using boltguns as clubs. I'm not complaining about this, if they do the same for SW grey hunters when the new codex comes out, I'll love them because my fluffy, grey-hunter heavy army will suddenly work again, but it seems to me a pointless and illogical change.
 

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Senior Member
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I would guess that they changed it because like you said they changed the rule to encourage short range firefights, but it didn't turn out as well as they thought it would. And the new rule encourages short range fire fights with some armies (necrons/tau); but allows marines to do well in the with bolters, and do well in hand to hand with a single tap before the assault begins. Now the tau are pretty wasted in the hand to hand department and should not have been charging before, but the Necron were doing better in hand to hand before (3 attacks), than they were in shooting--that is what they probably wanted to change. All the while making it so a charging marine is still slightly better than a shooting marine.
 

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Registered
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Sorry if someone's already done this, but I see in the new BA codex, I don't know about the Dark Angels, that they've given Tactical Marines a Boltgun AND Bolt Pistol. WHY??? They changed the rapid fire rules for fourth ed partly to encourage SMs to actually shoot people with their boltguns, and encourage short-range firefights, etc, as you couldn't shoot a boltgun and charge in the same turn. But now they give them Bolt Pistols, doesn't it just compeltely remove the point of that rules change, for this army at least? Now you can just fire the bolt pistols in the turn you charge and go back to the old-fashioned way of using boltguns as clubs. I'm not complaining about this, if they do the same for SW grey hunters when the new codex comes out, I'll love them because my fluffy, grey-hunter heavy army will suddenly work again, but it seems to me a pointless and illogical change.
I'd guess that all marines will eventually (5th edition) have extra weapons that can be used interchangeably. It makes some sense in that marines of all types might be expected to go armed to the teeth, but I know what you mean. Right now, Grey Hunters have to pay for bolters, in which case they don't get the full benefit of a charge, but I expect that will change. I just ran into this issue when I assaulted a group of Havocs with some Blood Claws and a Rune Priest. Three of the six Havocs had missile launchers but still got the benefit of a bolt pistol when I assaulted. Heavy weapons models that somehow drop their big guns and whip out a bolt pistol and close combat weapon for 2 attacks just doesn't make much sense to me. As for slinging the bolter for a bolt pistol and CCW, I can buy that.
 

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UnderWater Ninja-Tiger ..
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785 Posts
I'd guess that all marines will eventually (5th edition) have extra weapons that can be used interchangeably. It makes some sense in that marines of all types might be expected to go armed to the teeth, but I know what you mean. Right now, Grey Hunters have to pay for bolters, in which case they don't get the full benefit of a charge, but I expect that will change. I just ran into this issue when I assaulted a group of Havocs with some Blood Claws and a Rune Priest. Three of the six Havocs had missile launchers but still got the benefit of a bolt pistol when I assaulted. Heavy weapons models that somehow drop their big guns and whip out a bolt pistol and close combat weapon for 2 attacks just doesn't make much sense to me. As for slinging the bolter for a bolt pistol and CCW, I can buy that.
I'm confused. ( being new I say that alot ) I thought a *regular* model can have 1 two handed weapon + 1 CCW, or a pistol and a CCW? Which only the latter would give them the 2 weapon bonus for +attack.

Can a Missle Launcer marine, also be equipped with a pistol and a ccw?
 

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Banned
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I'm confused. ( being new I say that alot ) I thought a *regular* model can have 1 two handed weapon + 1 CCW, or a pistol and a CCW? Which only the latter would give them the 2 weapon bonus for +attack.

Can a Missle Launcer marine, also be equipped with a pistol and a ccw?
Most models can carry a single two-handed weapon and a 1 single handed weapon for no Attack Bonus. Some models though, like Grey Hunters (who have True Grit) get the attack bonus anyway.

In the new Codex books though, almost every model is equipped with a bolt pistol in addition to their usual weapons. So a Tactical Marine will have the ability to either rapid fire his bolter or fire his pistol and then assault. It just adds another layer of tactical versatility to units of Space Marines.

As for the missile launcher carrying Marine having a pistol and combat weapon, that is legal because the missile launcher replaces the bolter that he would have already been carrying.

So his weapons go from this:

Chaos Space Marine
- Bolter
- Bolt pistol
- Close combat weapon

to this:

Chaos Space Marine
- Missile launcher
- Bolt pistol
- Close combat weapon

Thus, when in combat the Chaos Marine would have 2 attacks. I hope that explains everything.

Katie D
 

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From strictly a fluff standpoint it makes sense, even troops in the 21st millennium take a side arm into combat.
From a rules standpoint, because of the change in rapid-fire rules from 3rd to 4th edition, having a bolt pistol is the only way a SM tactical squad can shoot then charge into an enemy.
 

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UnderWater Ninja-Tiger ..
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785 Posts
Yes. That explains it nicely, I'm assuming since you specified chaos space marine, and the grey hunter special rule, that it doesn't apply to the standard (Ultramarine) model?
 

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Banned
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2,425 Posts
Yes. That explains it nicely, I'm assuming since you specified chaos space marine, and the grey hunter special rule, that it doesn't apply to the standard (Ultramarine) model?
That's right. The only models that have all of these extra special rules and equipment will have it detailed in their Codex entry. Taking a look at a basic Ultramarine in Codex: Space Marines shows us that he carries a bolter and nothing more.

This will likely change when the new Marine Codex comes out later on, though.

Katie D
 

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Pedantic Englishman
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1,229 Posts
Discussion Starter · #9 ·
So his weapons go from this:

Chaos Space Marine
- Bolter
- Bolt pistol
- Close combat weapon

to this:

Chaos Space Marine
- Missile launcher
- Bolt pistol
- Close combat weapon

Thus, when in combat the Chaos Marine would have 2 attacks. I hope that explains everything.

Katie D
I'm sure in the Chaos codex, CSM have a Bolter or a bolt pistol, and a close comabt weapon? In which case, upgrading to a missile launcher would replace the bolt pistol, and leave him armed with a missile launcher and close combat weapon? I've not seen the Codex in a while, so I may be wrong, but that was alway my understanding when my little bro collected them.
 

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Master of the Crab Women
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1,007 Posts
I'm sure in the Chaos codex, CSM have a Bolter or a bolt pistol, and a close comabt weapon? In which case, upgrading to a missile launcher would replace the bolt pistol, and leave him armed with a missile launcher and close combat weapon? I've not seen the Codex in a while, so I may be wrong, but that was alway my understanding when my little bro collected them.
Nope. Chaos Marines now have a bolt pistol and close combat weapon AND a bolter.

Any weapon option now replaces the bolter. This means that he still has the bolt pistol and close combat weapon. Just think of him having pockets or straps!

Katie's explanation was pretty comprehensive.
 

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kut maar krachtig
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1,323 Posts
No offence guys and girls but this is utter crappy for all the other races this makes taking a compleet vanilla army possible for shooting asswell as CC what kinda unfairness is this. The SM are freaking cheap ass it is giving them a free CC attack is like giving me (necron) a freaking assault weapon instead of a rapidfire weapon. And since it's expected this will likley aplly to all SM chapters in new addition this will make the sm players even more over powered ass it is
 

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Banned
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No offence guys and girls but this is utter crappy for all the other races this makes taking a compleet vanilla army possible for shooting asswell as CC what kinda unfairness is this. The SM are freaking cheap ass it is giving them a free CC attack is like giving me (necron) a freaking assault weapon instead of a rapidfire weapon. And since it's expected this will likley aplly to all SM chapters in new addition this will make the sm players even more over powered ass it is
Man, my whine meter is going crazy over here. Only the Chaos Space Marines get (effectively) +1 attack in close combat to represent the fact that they're well-equipped veterans of a couple zillion battles. Normal Space Marines just get a bolt pistol to compliment their bolter, that's all. It gives us the option of having something to fire before we charge. You call that overpowered? Why don't we talk about the 'unkillable Falcon' or Nidzilla armies?
 

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Nox
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1,705 Posts
I have to say Katies right.

The reason for bolt pistols is

A- Fluff

B- Yes a space marine can do more damage when firing his Pistol then charging, however the bolter means he can choose, and when double tapping other Rapid Fire weapons can fire (plasma guns spring to mind). Generally its to allow them to shoot a little bit before a charge.

Arch
 

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Master of the Crab Women
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1,007 Posts
I have to say Katies right.

The reason for bolt pistols is

A- Fluff

B- Yes a space marine can do more damage when firing his Pistol then charging, however the bolter means he can choose, and when double tapping other Rapid Fire weapons can fire (plasma guns spring to mind). Generally its to allow them to shoot a little bit before a charge.

Arch
The bolt pistol is there to effectively let marines do what they did in 3rd ed. That is, fire a bolt before charging in as mentioned above.
 

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Wolf Lord
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426 Posts
An updated Space Wolf Codex is a myth! ;o

I think that it is jumping the gun to assume SM will be able to carry bolter + bp + ccw. I would be more than happy to see SM keep their current set up and have this "ultra grit" be a purchasable trait. The same goes for having sidearms.
 
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