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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hello there my Librarium friends

I was reading through our glorious and almost flawless armybook, and a went wondering..
Greatswords and Flagellants cost exactly the same. So... Whos the better?

Ofcause all of you critic readers out there are already like: "that depends on the army setup and your opponent and the terrain and your playstyle ect". I dont want any of that.

Lets say for a tournament list, who would do better? Flagellants or Greatswords?

Greatswords
Pros:
They have a good save
They have better WS
They get the strenghtbonus for carrying a twohanded weapon the whole combat
Cons:
They're "just" stubborn

Flagellant
Pros:
They're unbreakable!
They've got two attacks each
They have that awesome special ability which allows them to reroll hits and wounds
Cons:
They have no save
Their strenghtbonus is only for the first round of the combat

I'll admit though. I've never used any of those units (having very little warhammer experience), but im leaning towards the flagellants.

Here is my reflections.. Greatswords are hardhitting infantry, however they arent the core of the hardhitting troops of the empire army. Depending on greatswords to do some nasty killing is a doubtly solution (atleast if you wanna kill anything larger than a goblin) - go for cannons or knights instead. So what can the greatswords do then? Well - their stubborness gives them a great ability to hold the enemy fixed in combat for many rounds. Thats atleast a very good strategic move - but - cant the flagellants do that better? I mean - Flagellants will fight to the very last man! The greatswords might (if you're unlucky) run away already after the first round of combat (a disaster if you need to hold someone).
From my point a view the flagellants are by far the favorite choice to stop or hold an opponent. Alright - the flagellants might not be as capable as the greatswords when it comes to actually chop someone down (unless the flagellants gets the charge which will make them very very dangerous using the "the end is nigh"-ability).
But is the empire winning battles on chopping enemies down? no. They're winning through CR! So .. Is the greatswords worth it? Well .. if you've been using all your rare-slots and for some odd reason havnt brought a WP in your army - then yes. If this is not the case: Flagellants > Greatswords. Always!

Anyway i've been rampling enough. What is your oppinion - And why am i wrong/right? :)


-Tash
 

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RAWR! KROXIGOR!!
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Yeh, Flaggellants are in general much better then Greatswordsmen for all the reasons you have stated, plus the fact that Greatswords are Special (Empire are normally running short of Special choices with Cannons and Pistoliers eating them all) while the Flaggies are Core with a Warrior Priest or Rare (Rare is not quite as cramped as Special, wiht only the STank being a really crucial choice).
 

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I'm sorry to be the one that breaks this to you, but if your outlook is
Ofcause all of you critic readers out there are already like: "that depends on the army setup and your opponent and the terrain and your playstyle ect". I dont want any of that.
Then you're probably not going to get a huge amount of responses.

I've used Greatswords once in a proxy battle, and have been meaning to buy some for a while now. Flagellants, however, I have enough of to comment fairly reliably on.

Flagellants have a nice degree of flexibility to them, as they can be used a a "tarpit" to bog down other units with Unbreakable, or a "hammer" to strike a powerful blow against other units, with "The End is Nigh!". However, they also come with a few liabilities that you need to game with a bit to really see what they do. Firstly, they have Frenzy: while this is good for the extra attacks,it also acts as a very double-edged sword. It means they HAVE to charge if they can, which makes them very easy for most fast cavalry to bait out of position. A couple of well-angled positions will lead your unit being well unable to fight until they get close to an enemy, which will take repositioning and movement. Likewise, if a unit with high Initiative and decent Attacks is set to charge you, you can't do a thing about it. If, say, a unit of Chaos Knights declares a charge, they'll rip through your unit within a couple of combat phases. Same applies to Wardancers, Swordmasters, Blood Knights, several Ogre units and many others. Unlike with Greatswords, you can't position them close to a Helblaster, then flee to reveal the gun pointed at said scary unit, for example.

Greatswords, like you said, are more moderate. They have a chance of fleeing (though if led by a BSB, they have a 92.55% chance of sticking around if I'm not mistaken) and aren't quite as powerful on the charge as Flagellants, but they can do quite well in a meat grinder scenario. I remember said unit being almost obliterated before combat, but the lone champion holding off a fully ranked unit for longer than the Captain, and doing a decent amount of damage too. Again, they don't have the same liabilities attached to them as Flagellants, so if you want to hold your position, you can do that. But, like you said, Stubborn doesn't quite match up to Unbreakable just as they don't have teh same damage output.

Hope this provides some insights.
 

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I haven't played either much personally. Using other rare or special choices. The Flaggies did get used as core once but got cut down by Dark Elf Blackguard pretty quickly.

I wanted to add that GreatSwords can have detachments and this should be a significant consideration in comparing the two.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Hi everyone. Thanks for answering

I'm sorry to be the one that breaks this to you, but if your outlook is

Originally Posted by Tashin
Ofcause all of you critic readers out there are already like: "that depends on the army setup and your opponent and the terrain and your playstyle ect". I dont want any of that.

Then you're probably not going to get a huge amount of responses.
Alright Archonfarseerguy, perhaps that was abit harsh of me to neglect those kinda answers - however i was just trying to state that obvious reasons like these shouldnt have to get mentioned. Ofcause its all very situational wether you should go for flagellants or greatswords. Hope noones feelings got hurt :(

That put aside im thankful for the replies. It seems that the Flagellants are the overall favorite choice of unit - not that greatswords are a bad choice either. Personally i think i might have underestimated Greatswords abit seeing that they're more or less unbreakable with a BSB leading them, and that they have the capability for a detachment unit which will make them very potential.

Is there anyone out there who always puts greatswords before flagellants? - and would you care to elaborate?

- Tash
 

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I think Greatswords are a bit more versitile, they can be used to anchor your battle line, they can be used a bit more aggressively. You can put a BSB or Warrior Priest in to enhance them. And they are good fighters who can take on most enemies. Of course being able to take detachments is a boon, ten Halberdiers protecting the flank is useful.

Flagellants are a great unit to use as an anvil to hold up a powerful enemy unit before crashing a unit of Knights into the flank. The only problem I find is often having to use a third unit to position the enemy unit correctly (Huntsmen or Pistoliers stopping the unit from marching) and this is quite a lot of resources being used to kill one unit - it all depends on the unit you're facing. It's overkill for 20 Goblins, it makes perfect sense for an expensive unit of Chaos Knights. Also, at WS2 Flagellants don't hit very much. And they tend to die very fast.

As with everything in the Empire army, neither of them achieves much without the help of other units.
 

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Born from Tears of Angels
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I dont know why people are so judgemental toward the greatswords, they arent that bad really. Besides, flagellants and greatswords are completely different units, one does te damage and the other does the blocking.

When you take greatswords, you try to get them into CC with the best enemy infantry so they could use their Str6 to to their advantage - basicaly the same uses as the Dark elf executioners and their High elf greatsword counterparts. Idealy you want to enter CC after the enemy unit suffered a few shots from the cannons. If you enter CC with them and they somehow loose then you probably did something wrong, because these guys are supposed to be damage dealers.

Flagellants on the other hand are just a swarm of very annoying pests. No matter how hard you smash them, for each one you kill 2 more take their place. If you ever play 40k tyranids - its basicaly the same idea. Unlike greatswords these will do NO damage once so ever but on the other hand if will be priceless to see their 400 point tooled up commander on a dragon trying to slice through a unit of countless flagellants for 6 turns..

***My personal love goes to the greatswords, simply because I always try to go for the 15 and 16th century Conquistador theme, and no unit in empire resebles them better then greatswords. Flagellants would be a good edition for bretonnians, in fact i dont even know what the hell they are doing in the empire codex...
 

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I use a large block of greatswords to anchor my battle line, and as a retinue for my BSB...let's see, a mere captain toting a 100 point banner...yep, he needs tough-as-nails babysitters. Since the empire doesn't have anything like that, greatswords will have to do ;)
 

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I don't know 'bout all your guy's countries, but in Canada a box of ten flaggies is $30 and a box of ten greatswords $50. I know what side I'm on.
Well...that's true...but...20 greatswords'll take a much bigger beating than 30 flaggies. In any kind of sustained combat, the zealots start dropping like flies, being armored in nothing more than loincloths, while the full-plate greatswords have staying power. To me, the expectation that the greatswords will live longer is worth the extra dough. Also, the flaggies are very characterful...almost too much so. I can't think of a build that would look wrong with a unit of greatswords in the center of the line...but religious nutjobs? That's a niche unit that may not be right for all army flavors.
 

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T3 with 4+ armour in a game where strength modifies armour and going last because of great weapons... Thats not that great for staying power. Flaggalents have even less, true, but they will absolutly not break for any reason. They fulfill thier roll better. The odds of your opponent even being able to kill 30 flaggelants in 6 turns isnt all that good.

Also Marnepup, I wouldnt use the Banner of the Empire. Its a big fat waste of points imo.
 

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Another Point:
Greatswords Models: A+ (Lots of doo dads and ooo ahhs.)
Flaggies: ....Barf

Sadly I have to say that I run my Greatswords as Flaggies bc the models are awesome but I use Flaggies as a Brick Wall w/ help coming from Inner Circles.
 
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