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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi,

THe other day I was thinking about the great rules that grotesques have their specail feel no pain and their Terrifying opponent rule.

I was wondering if people have used them in unison with Wyches assaulting the same unit. As the wyches will do some damage to your opponenet and then this is will reduce the ammount of attacks the grotesques will face and give them some more survivability in combat.

However if you win the combat the enemy unit will have to fall back. And with the wyches high I you should be able to chase them down.

Sounds good in my head have people tried such a thing? It would leave the Wyches vulnerable though in the next turn unless you can get those grotesques in the way between the wyches and the enemy guns.
 

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You do not need wyches for this. A very effective setup is :
8 Grotesques
1 Haemonculi
1 Archon
1 Raider

You fly with your raider, then deploy and detach your Archon, and then charge with both.
Archon kills some models, then grotesques with haemi kill some more, and then the enemy falls back, and you roll separately for the Archon with his very hight ini.
 

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Dark Eldar Gerbil
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the grotesques won't protect the wyches as the enemy only has to pass a priority test, which is rather easy... and you will as a result probably lose your wyches.

what mika says is right, this way theycan't shoot your archon either as he is an IC
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Yeah I sort of thought so but I was trying to think of something new to add where I wouldn't have to rely on my Archon. That is all.

Seemed like a good idea at the time. lol

Just trying to fond something new.
 

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Dark Eldar Zealot
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You do not need wyches for this. A very effective setup is :
8 Grotesques
1 Haemonculi
1 Archon
1 Raider

You fly with your raider, then deploy and detach your Archon, and then charge with both.
Archon kills some models, then grotesques with haemi kill some more, and then the enemy falls back, and you roll separately for the Archon with his very hight ini.
Well, it would want to be effective because that lot costs at least 320 points and results in the Archon being stranded in the open after winning combat.

This all seems like a “One trick pony,” but effective for that one application.
(But I have seen it used well against Necrons.)

The Wych/Grot team up would be more flexible in the game in my opinion.

Cheers.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
That was what I was thinking wickywacky1. The problem with having the archon in the grotesques could also see it stranded. However by having effectively two different assault units on the table it could be a bit more effective.

The only thing though is that once you win combat with the two units those wyches themselves will become stuck and open to enemy fire... If only there was a way to avoid this!
 

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Dark Eldar Zealot
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That was what I was thinking wickywacky1. The problem with having the archon in the grotesques could also see it stranded. However by having effectively two different assault units on the table it could be a bit more effective.

The only thing though is that once you win combat with the two units those wyches themselves will become stuck and open to enemy fire... If only there was a way to avoid this!
Hi again,
The way to try and avoid being stranded out in the open after combat is to finish your opponent in HIS turn, not yours.

You will then have available your full turn of move, shoot and assault available to you to try and roll into the next combat with the charge bonus.
Doing this in a game is an absolute killer move.

Methods of adjusting or toning down how hard to hit in the initial charge so that there is something left for your opponents combat phase turn are:

1. Getting into base contact with the bare minimum to do the job, using the arrowhead formation. (Mind you, you still HAVE to finish them off in the return combat.)
2. Detach any independent characters and move them away to lessen the sudden death impact, you don’t want sudden death here but a second player turn death, if that makes sense.
3. Place upgrade characters away from initial contact at the back of the squad.
4. Forgo all or some of your shooting of the squad your going to assault if you think that you are going to wipe them out in the subsequent charge. This is tactically the most important decision you will ever make here and needs the greatest planning, as all the other points are immediately situational.

I am sure there is other “combat impact adjusters” players can think of but these spring to mind at the moment.

Cheers.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
THe problem comes though with a combined attack of Grotesques and Wyches that if you win the enemy must fall back...

Then with the wyches superior I it normally leads to the oppoenet not being able to break off!

That is where the problem lies.
 

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Archite of Caerbannog
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I am not seeing how the Archon can be "stranded" with Grotesques - if there was any unit that I would want to be stranded with, it would be the grotesques and their "feel no pain" special rule. Heck, I usually can find cover to move the entire group into and no enjoy a cover save against the strength 6+ weapons while ignoring the str. 5 (and it doesnt matter if I am attached to the unit or not either!).

Wyches, Incubi and warriors can leave you stranded - the grots give you a good chance to survive.
 

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Dark Eldar Zealot
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THe problem comes though with a combined attack of Grotesques and Wyches that if you win the enemy must fall back...

Then with the wyches superior I it normally leads to the oppoenet not being able to break off!

That is where the problem lies.
Hi,
You can not force a fall back if the attacked unit is immune to the effects of morale, so its by no means a given.

I am assuming that you are relying on the Grots rule of “Terrifying Opponent,” to ensure that a fall back takes place but “Fearless” universal special rule (page 74) overrides this unfortunately (page 48 “No Retreat.”)
So for example a Space Marine Chaplain and their attached squad can never be forced to fall back by Grotesques.

Kwi, if the Archon is detached surely only it has the best chance to achieve a sweeping advance due to its much higher initiative, thus separating the Grots from him. No?

Thanks.
 

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Kwi, if the Archon is detached surely only it has the best chance to achieve a sweeping advance due to its much higher initiative, thus separating the Grots from him. No?

Thanks.
Yes the Archon will most likely destroy a unit in sweeping advance thanks to his high ini. But both units (archon and grots) will get the massacre consolidation roll. And if you wont reach any enemy with this move you can just screen your archon with the grots. He is an IC so the enemy can't shoot him.

So I really do not understand that "stranded" argument.
 

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Archite of Caerbannog
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Kwi, if the Archon is detached surely only it has the best chance to achieve a sweeping advance due to its much higher initiative, thus separating the Grots from him. No?
I was considering both situations, attached and not attached when left "stranded".

As for the assault it is better to detach so you can use the Archons initiative but as long as you consolidate within 2" of the Grotesques afterwards you can enjoy ignoring str. 5 weapons. The only problem to consider is if the enemy does fire the strength 6 weapons and the grotesques take casualties and is forced to take a morale check chances are they will run. However, I haven't had an opponent that could orchestrate the sequence of events that would leave an Archon standing completely alone.

In the last couple games using grotesques I have been using Haemoculi to lead them. Since I usually use 2 haemoculi on one raider full of grots, one is attached and the other is unattached once they disembark, thus one roll-off is using the grotesques initiative and the other is using one of the haemoculi's (and in that case the grotesques actually won the initiative roll-off, totally by luck).

As for Archons using grotesques, the last time I used them the Archon used them as a "launch pad" in the opening turn (disembark, detach, fleet and 12" charge) and left the stupid buggers picking daisies for the remainder of the game (they were left in the open and I never rolled below "6" to get them moving, they just stood there :|). I wouldn't make an Archon's retinue larger than 5 - when I use them with Haemoculi I use no less than 8.
 

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Dark Eldar Zealot
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3rd Ed strikes again!

Hi Guys,
Now this is really funny.

I have just spent the last months worth of train travel going to work reading the old 3rd Ed rules just for laughs and I had it firmly stuck in my head these old rules for sweeping advance, consolidation and fall back.

And along comes this thread on the same subject I was just reading about in the older rules book – so guess what happened? I got totally confused back there and cross-pollinated parts of 3rd Ed into the argument.

When I realised what I had done here on the train trip back home yesterday I had to laugh to myself, of course I was totally wrong back there concerning the Archon being “stranded” as it just doesn’t happen that way now.

Oh well at least I can admit when I am wrong, sorry for the confusion guys.

Thanks and at least I got a laugh out of it!
 

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The only problem to consider is if the enemy does fire the strength 6 weapons and the grotesques take casualties and is forced to take a morale check chances are they will run.
That's one of the reasons that there's a cheap Haemi as well as an Archon in the setup I proposed above.
 
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