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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi all

Given the rumours for 5th Edition, what do you see happening to the Guard ? Both good and bad ? Other boards have this thread, but I didn't see it for Guard.

I think some fundamentals of the way I peroanlly play Guard will change. At the moment, my tanks advance, my infantry stay still. With the changes to vehicle shooting and cover saves, and the Run rule, I can see that getting reversed. Other things I can see :

Good stuff :
Vehicles now much more survivable, especially parked in cover.

Bad stuff :
Infiltrate / scout make the gun line unfeasible. Enemy units will be in CC before they can be stopped.
Friendly units blocking line of sight. Makes multiple lines a recipe for disaster, and makes maneuvering for the shot more important. Sentinels might become more essential to get manouverable HW's.
Wound allocation : all the good low AP hits will be piled onto a single model, while the lasguns patter off the rest of the squad. Shooting as a whole appears to be less effective - more games look like they'll be decided by CC.

Any other thoughts on how it'll affect Guard specifically ?
 

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Sparta!
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Personally, I'm not going to give it any thought until I actually have the rulebook in my hands - basing your play style and army list and stuff you are going to buy off rumors is pointless and a bit of a knee jerk reaction.
So, without a hardcopy of the rules I'm not going to bother.
That being said (and a little harshly maybe) I'm more than happy to see what others think may happen and then read with avid glee the cries of doom and despair as millions of players cry out as one "These rules are broken, my army is nerfed!".
 

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The Fallen
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the wound allocation thing will get sorted pre release, have no doubts

infiltration makes gun lines unfeasible? how? it hasnt changed!

screening is a two way door, whilst it will make life more difficult for deploying large all infantry guard armies effectively it allows line squads to protect heavy weapons platoons/squads and put mortars more firmly on the shopping list

most importantly:
running means assault armies generally will hit your gune line quicker, but still not turn 1, screening denies a lot of fire discipline, those two are the main kicks, also chimera will lose some of its effectiveness as a mobile heavy weapons platorm

And we can stop having to buy two sets of heavy weapons, one for most armies tanks and a second for use against fast skimmers
 

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Treadhead with a Chainaxe
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What worries me most about the 5th ed rumours is defensive weaponary being s4 at most. That means that the standard tripple heavy bolter russ won't be able to move and fire more than one heavy bolter and if that change happends, is going to ruin the entire idea behind playing a mechanised grenadier army as you'll loose out alot of firepower or force you to play alot more static and in that case, you might aswell play an infantry army.
 

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The Fallen
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do agree kaiser, but I think that is true of all armies, I think vehicles are going to turn into static fire power sources, which to be fair is less of a problem for IG than say Eldar or Tau, I suspect heavy stubbers will spout everywhere! Aslo it opens up the debate on other sponson weapons on the Russ varriants
 

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....coookies...
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Running

Hi Guys,

I have to admit that I am not sure if 5th edition is a hoax or not. The rules for assigning wounds and multiple woud units just don't work together at all. I am not sure that the rules represent an improvement in many areas either. One thing I did think was a good idea was running. This makes a lot of sense and really changes a lot of dynamics. One of the Imperial Guard units that I think will really be affected a lot if this change is made are Heavy Weapons Squads. These guys have always been great, laying down a hail of fire on the cheap. Now they can run around on turns where they don't fire I think they are even better. The move or fire rule really means just that. The old 6" was great but often fell short of really moving your Heavy Weapons to that 'better spot' now that they are able to run during a phase when they are unable to shoot anyway I think that the Heavy Weapons Squads will be a lot more useful.

I am particularly grateful for this as I have loads of Heavy Weapons Squads and I am keen to see them be as effective as possible! Can't shoot those incoming nasties? Run away and shoot them next turn. Can't see that tank? run somewhere more interesting. Want to grab that objective before really letting your opponent have it? Go right ahead. The Heavy Bolter boys are here to stay! or not...
 

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The Fallen
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Hi Guys,

I have to admit that I am not sure if 5th edition is a hoax or not. The rules for assigning wounds and multiple woud units just don't work together at all. I am not sure that the rules represent an improvement in many areas either. One thing I did think was a good idea was running. This makes a lot of sense and really changes a lot of dynamics. One of the Imperial Guard units that I think will really be affected a lot if this change is made are Heavy Weapons Squads. These guys have always been great, laying down a hail of fire on the cheap. Now they can run around on turns where they don't fire I think they are even better. The move or fire rule really means just that. The old 6" was great but often fell short of really moving your Heavy Weapons to that 'better spot' now that they are able to run during a phase when they are unable to shoot anyway I think that the Heavy Weapons Squads will be a lot more useful.

I am particularly grateful for this as I have loads of Heavy Weapons Squads and I am keen to see them be as effective as possible! Can't shoot those incoming nasties? Run away and shoot them next turn. Can't see that tank? run somewhere more interesting. Want to grab that objective before really letting your opponent have it? Go right ahead. The Heavy Bolter boys are here to stay! or not...
really? I mean if I was a guardsmen, the word "run" would usually be followed in short order by "away"
 

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....coookies...
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Nah

Nah, the Imperial Guard are elites. You need to remember that. If you want to get an idea of what you typical run of the mill office worker would be like take a peek at the conscript stats. Look at the Leadership.

I mean how brave would you have to be to line up with an underpowered firearm with a few of your similarly armed mates and look across a couple of hundred yards of dirt at power-armoured marines, who have probably be fighting for three times as long as you have been alive, beings who carry as a standard weapon a rapid firing mini-missile launcher, carry heavy weapons without assistance and can survive a direct hit from a heavy bolter and not only live but live entirely unscathed?

The Imperial Guard are the heroes of the 40k world. They are not specially adapted, they are not mindless killing machines, they are just men with something worth fighting for.

Men of [enter name of homeworld]! Do you want to live forever?

Charge!
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Most recent rumor I heard on this board was infiltrate / scout allows units to come on from a board edge decided by a d6 - 1-2 left board edge, 3-4 right board edge, 5-6 long board edge. Note it doesn't say WHERE on the board edge, so coming on in the opponents deployment zone left or right edge seems allowed.
(http://www.librarium-online.com/forums/rumours-previews/108093-40k-5th-edition-rumors-38.html, number 96).

Exarch Thomo, yeah, a bit harsh : I don't plan to buy / convert / alter anything till the rules are here, but wanted to find out what implications other Guard players saw so far. Like you, I'm just curious, but I am not claiming anythings nerfed / broken etc, just different :)
 

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The Fallen
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Nah, the Imperial Guard are elites.
ROTFLMAO
You need to remember that. If you want to get an idea of what you typical run of the mill office worker would be like take a peek at the conscript stats. Look at the Leadership.
you are not serious are you? I mean yeah sure IG are better soldiers than the average citizen by streaks, but that still leaves a lot to be desired, your normal citizen doesnt get employed as a soldier, IG are not elites, they are grunts
I mean how brave would you have to be to line up with an underpowered firearm with a few of your similarly armed mates and look across a couple of hundred yards of dirt at power-armoured marines, who have probably be fighting for three times as long as you have been alive, beings who carry as a standard weapon a rapid firing mini-missile launcher, carry heavy weapons without assistance and can survive a direct hit from a heavy bolter and not only live but live entirely unscathed?

The Imperial Guard are the heroes of the 40k world. They are not specially adapted, they are not mindless killing machines, they are just men with something worth fighting for.

Men of [enter name of homeworld]! Do you want to live forever?

Charge!
Oh I see, you are a recruiting officer?
 

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....coookies...
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I know it's amusing

I know what I am saying is amusing but it remains my real perspective. I think that it is easy to feel that marines set the standard. They don't. Marines are the ultimate, the best of the bio-engineered best. The Imperial GUard that make it onto our tabletops are not mere grunts, not the lowest of the low but well trained and well equipped troops many of whom are experienced in multiple theatres and combat techniques. The background indicates that many will have been using drugs to enhance their physiques well beyond what a 'normal' man would consider a strong build.

Ah well, it's all fictional in the end.
 

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The Fallen
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I know what I am saying is amusing but it remains my real perspective. I think that it is easy to feel that marines set the standard.
hmm I agree there is that tendency but agree with you, marines are not the standard, they are the elite, the ultimate as you put it
They don't. Marines are the ultimate, the best of the bio-engineered best.
The Imperial GUard that make it onto our tabletops are not mere grunts, not the lowest of the low but well trained and well equipped troops many of whom are experienced in multiple theatres and combat techniques.
Hmm ok you are aware that the word "grunt" is a term used by modern infantry to indicate themselves, (i,e, "well trained and well equipped troops many of whom are experienced in multiple theatres and combat techniques") that is pretty much the definition of gruint, igf you dont think that IG are grunts (and incidentally I think you will find most IG are treated more akin to WW1 soldiers fluff wise - i.e. send tehm over the top in a huge effort to move the field marshalls drinks cabinet 3 ft closer to the objective) then what do you feel is teh grunt - the infantryman of 40K since citizens dont generally fight as soldiers in a standing army
The background indicates that many will have been using drugs to enhance their physiques well beyond what a 'normal' man would consider a strong build.
no it doesnt, there is a specific section that does this (Chemical enhancement doctrine for D-99), your average guardsman will be more interested in recreational drugs
 

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You see Imperial Guard only in comparison to the Space Marines, ruleswise.

Its important to note that the average Savlar Chemdog, is a stronger, more dedicated fighter then a PDF fighter. The Cain novels make the point that a squad or two of guard are more competent then an entire PDF regiment.

To average imperial citizen, the guard is big, and nifty. Nobody with half a brain wants to screw with the guard. Marines are the things of legend.

...still, this is about 5th edition guard stuff, and not the guard themselves, so forgive the momentary deviation.
 

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The Fallen
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see there are distinctions between the guard, but I dont think you can count on Novels as entirely reliable, there ia considerable amount of fluff elsewhere that PDF regiments get transfered to the guard as a tythe en mass.

Sure there are those that are altered (aelfric strain) although chem dogs is a bad example as they were modified predominantly not to make them stronger but just to allow them to survive in the chemical waste environment

there are guard regiments from high G planets who will be stronger than others, there are martial plannets (Cadia) where the citizenry will be better soldiers than most other planets PDF or IG, or similar for deathworlds (Catachan)

The space marines are not at all well represented in rules compared to fluff, although play inquisitor and you will rapidly see what one should be like

the rules group stuff, sure therefore one regiment, on average would be better shots, better in combat, stronger, tougher, quicker, or more resiliant than another, but when you are scoring all life forms out of 10 the difference is so small as to be indistinguishable, the fact reamains that the IG (the former imperial army) provides the imperiums basic infantryman, and the phrase "grunt" is your basic infantryman
 

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LO Zealot
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Novel Guardsman - Can take an entire army and win (think arnie commando)
Game Guardsman - Cannon fodder.


Guardsmen aren't elite. They're no where near elite. Give them upgrades, specialist kit, special rules what ever you want, but the bottom line is they still die like a human. Toughness 3 and 5+ save aren't the makings of elite super soldiers.

So of course the novels/films/games will hype up the main characters... look at Kais in Firewarrior, he took down an imperial ship, a planet, hordes of guard, marines and chaos marines single handedly...
 

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Guardsmen aren't elite. They're no where near elite. Give them upgrades, specialist kit, special rules what ever you want, but the bottom line is they still die like a human. Toughness 3 and 5+ save aren't the makings of elite super soldiers.
I think that the point Zarahemna is trying to make is that the fact that they die like humans makes them more heroic than SMs, who wear suits of armor and bear genetic implants to make them beyond human. The fact that a lowly guardsman is capable of performing extremely heroic acts without the need of super protection and top of the line weaponry, needing only his lasgun and his guts, that's what makes Guardsmen elite. It's like in sports where coaches keep guys on teams just because they have something intangible that makes up for their lack of skill. No they aren't SMs or Battlesuits or Farseers, but they defend the Imperium from everything despite that fact.

Besides if you want to argue statlines, who uses Ogryns? Or Engiseers for that matter? Both are examples of Elites choices with better statlines in places you mentioned that I have never ever seen anyone use on a table. If the Force Organization Chart didn't apply and your opponent gave you the choice between two units of Ogryns for free, two Engiseers with their measly 50 points of servitors, or two more free platoons of Infantry, would you really take anything but the infantry?
 

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Novel Guardsman - Can take an entire army and win (think arnie commando)
Game Guardsman - Cannon fodder.


Guardsmen aren't elite. They're no where near elite. Give them upgrades, specialist kit, special rules what ever you want, but the bottom line is they still die like a human. Toughness 3 and 5+ save aren't the makings of elite super soldiers.

So of course the novels/films/games will hype up the main characters... look at Kais in Firewarrior, he took down an imperial ship, a planet, hordes of guard, marines and chaos marines single handedly...
I didn't say they were elite per say, I said they're better then the average.

Think in terms of army vs say the national guard. The Imperial Guard aren't a bunch of people out there with toothpicks and slingshots. The t-shirts we so often deride are capable of withstanding some pretty good firing fluffwise, and hellguns probably feature somewhat similarly to Dirty Harry's magnum on the local entertainment circuit. Its just the fact that you have marines out there marching around in armor that can withstand stepping on landmines, or direct shots from rocket launchers that would shred normal men that make the guard armor look flimsy.

We have this part backwards. Space Marine armor isn't supposed to be thought of as the norm. Its 'Imperial Guard Armor is strong, but Space Marine armor is impossibly strong!' as opposed to 'Imperial Guard Armor is crap!'
Its important to note that flak armor is considered spectacularly defensive (fluffwise), its why the stormtroopers (and marine scouts) get it.

The Guard handles 99 percent of the Imperium's military problems. All of those races you've never heard of? All of those tiny planets full of cat warriors, and blood drinking demon bunnies, heretics who don't have daemons and chaos space marine leaders, eldar exodites who don't have fancy hovertanks, and de-evolved tyranids...those all got wiped out thanks to the guard.

What has to be remembered, is that while compared to the -big names- of the universe, the guard seem to measure up as the space marine's younger dyspeptic, paraplegic, brother (who carries around more guns then Rambo); to the average citizen, the guard are much more impressive, and unlike the generic PDFs, the guard tend to actually be trained, equipped, and organized.
 

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and blood drinking demon bunnies
Hahahah what a campaign that was huh?

Trooper 1: Look at how cute! Jeez you wonder how a bunny survives in this toxic deathworld environment...

Trooper 2: I don't think it's a good idea to touch it... its eyes are all firey red with warp filth...

Trooper 1: Dude, all bunnies have red eyes. Look it's completely harmle...SWEET MERCIFUL EMPEROR IT FRICKIN BIT ME! IT IS SUCKING MY BLOOD!! MEDIC! ::then realizes that medics aren't allowed in line squads and fails his armor save::

Trooper 2: ::Fails leadership test, starts to run away, but then sees his company standard nearby, is blinded by how much shiny gold thread is in it, forgets what he is doing, remembers, and assaults demon bunny with full complement of CCW attacks, including hair pulling, making insulting faces, and using harsh language, oblivious to the depleted husk that was Trooper 1::
 

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Hey guys, this thread caught my eye, because I am planning to start a new IG army (refer to my Death Korps thread) and I don't want to have to change everything around 6 months after I get it assembled! When is the new Codex and Rule book supposed to come out?
 
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