GW murdered my baby!

GW is not a good company at all. In fact, I would go so far to say they are one of the worst gaming companies out there, much worse than Wizards, White Wolf, etc.

Why?

-They don't bother to proofread. They have a virtual monopoly, and have never bothered to proofread. Ever. Want proof? Look at any book they've put out.
-40k (can't speak for other systems) has millions of holes. Millions of rules conflicts exist throughout the game, and players always have to guess, or whatever. They don't want to take the effort to make everything fully integrated, make keywords with set definitions ('modifier', for example), make everything seamless. Why don't they want to? They don't have to, and they know it. Wizards of the Coast has a much harder time with this, because they release two new sets every year, and have to make sure every single card fits in seamlessly with the thousands of other cards they have released previously. This works great, for the most part, and when they do make mistakes, they have a system to fix it. GW messes up, and their system includes making up an FAQ that further adds to the confusion.
-They are price gougers. Although it is their right to raise prices, they're doing so past what I think would be fair.
-The only contact R&D has with the players is releasing the odd article to hype up the release of something new. Wizards, on the other hand, releases several articles every week, answers mail, answers player's questions, and, overall, has a much better contact with it's player base. And it's their legal and moral right to sue Rancoured_Elf, who is, by definition, a theif so anyone who brings that up has merely a moot point.
-They bully shops that carry their product - setting prices, disallowing them to sell seperate bitz, etc. Again, it is their right, however I think this is unfair. I know at least one shop that stopped carrying GW products because of this.

And that's my rant on why GW sucks. I'm sure there's some other reasons, but those are the ones that I could think of.

And to get back off-topic, I like playing 40k, even though the prices are high and the system is full of holes.

Captain Strong said:

-They don't bother to proofread. They have a virtual monopoly, and have never bothered to proofread. Ever. Want proof? Look at any book they've put out.

Click to expand...

First off what does a "virtual monopoly" have anything to do with the ability to proofread. Adding this comment does nothing for your reasoning. Rampant errors in print exist in just about any company. Wizards of the Coast is very bad at this as well. I agree that more care should be addressed in proofreading from the start however that doesn't make it a bad company. They do release errata and corrections to their website which is more than some companies do.

Captain Strong said:

-40k (can't speak for other systems) has millions of holes. Millions of rules conflicts exist throughout the game, and players always have to guess, or whatever. They don't want to take the effort to make everything fully integrated, make keywords with set definitions ('modifier', for example), make everything seamless. Why don't they want to? They don't have to, and they know it. Wizards of the Coast has a much harder time with this, because they release two new sets every year, and have to make sure every single card fits in seamlessly with the thousands of other cards they have released previously. This works great, for the most part, and when they do make mistakes, they have a system to fix it. GW messes up, and their system includes making up an FAQ that further adds to the confusion.

Click to expand...

This is ironic - It is ok for WOTC to release errata (according to you) but if GW does it is looked at by you negatively. There are not millions of holes in the game. Exaggeration isn't helping your case here. Sorry. Also GW has several outlets of communication where they have asked people to comment on rules, etc. so you can hardly suggest that they don't care what people think.

Captain Strong said:

-They are price gougers. Although it is their right to raise prices, they're doing so past what I think would be fair.

Click to expand...

The key word here is "think" what you think is fair vs. the large and complicated matter of pricing things are 2 different things. Also I would be interested from you and others that feel that they are over priced to come up with a concrete example that shows that they are so much more expensive than other related things. Would we all want lower prices - sure! However the prices are not out of range for other related things.

Captain Strong said:

-The only contact R&D has with the players is releasing the odd article to hype up the release of something new. Wizards, on the other hand, releases several articles every week, answers mail, answers player's questions, and, overall, has a much better contact with it's player base. And it's their legal and moral right to sue Rancoured_Elf, who is, by definition, a theif so anyone who brings that up has merely a moot point.

Click to expand...

As noted above there are places to share your comments and suggestions with GW (see their own message boards). I seem to recall seeing lots of articles on the Games workshop site. I have always received an answer to an e-mail sent to GW especially when they were doing the rules answers (I don't believe they are still doing this) so I really don't see what you are basing the comparrision on. Wizards of the Coast has a much broader range of material so it could be expected that you would probably find more frequent updates on their site.

Captain Strong said:

-They bully shops that carry their product - setting prices, disallowing them to sell seperate bitz, etc. Again, it is their right, however I think this is unfair. I know at least one shop that stopped carrying GW products because of this.

Click to expand...

Know your facts before making random comments. Games Workshop does allow independent stores to sell bitz. I have bought some from Art's Bargains. Also as for setting prices that is ridiculous as well. Independent stores can sell GW stuff at a discount. The only stipulation is in regards to advertising this online. I don't know if you have noticed but most independent stores that still sell GW stuff usually offer a 800 number to call in your orders and still offer a 20-25% discount.

Captain Strong said:

And that's my rant on why GW sucks. I'm sure there's some other reasons, but those are the ones that I could think of.

And to get back off-topic, I like playing 40k, even though the prices are high and the system is full of holes.

Click to expand...

Everyones entitles to their rants but you will be taken much more seriously if you include facts in your comments. Being an alarmist just for the hell of it gets you nowhere.

Cheers,

-Mike

slorak said:

First off what does a "virtual monopoly" have anything to do with the ability to proofread. Adding this comment does nothing for your reasoning. Rampant errors in print exist in just about any company. Wizards of the Coast is very bad at this as well. I agree that more care should be addressed in proofreading from the start however that doesn't make it a bad company. They do release errata and corrections to their website which is more than some companies do.

Click to expand...

Wizards of the coast is *not* bad at proofreading. Their products have little to no grammatical errors, compared to GW products which are abysmal, and sometimes even a little unclear. Although both release errata, Wizards releases it to fix loopholes, while GW uses them mostly to clarify their own misuse of the English language. Errors exist even within codices: the statline of a unit and its quick reference counterpart are often different: there is no reason for this at all. None. The fact that GW doesn't bother to proofread its own material shows its regard for the gaming community.

Know your facts before making random comments. Games Workshop does allow independent stores to sell bitz. I have bought some from Art's Bargains. Also as for setting prices that is ridiculous as well. Independent stores can sell GW stuff at a discount. The only stipulation is in regards to advertising this online. I don't know if you have noticed but most independent stores that still sell GW stuff usually offer a 800 number to call in your orders and still offer a 20-25% discount.

Click to expand...

The manager at my local store has told me otherwise. GW sets prices for stores to sell it at, doesn't allow my store to sell bitz, and sends people to check in on it from time to time. The fact that another of my local stores has stopped carrying GW at its own loss should lend credence to my argument. So I do know my facts.

As noted above there are places to share your comments and suggestions with GW (see their own message boards). I seem to recall seeing lots of articles on the Games workshop site. I have always received an answer to an e-mail sent to GW especially when they were doing the rules answers (I don't believe they are still doing this) so I really don't see what you are basing the comparrision on. Wizards of the Coast has a much broader range of material so it could be expected that you would probably find more frequent updates on their site.

Click to expand...

Your logic is flawed here. Wizards has more products to take care of, so they issue updates more frequently? That is to say, several articles a week by Wizards employees to keep the gaming community involved is just standard, compared to an article or two by an R&D person at GW whenever they release something? There hasn't been a hobby article on the GW site since the templars came out, excepting Black Gobbo, which comes out once in a while. And the real meaty stuff, the articles that Wizards gives away for free, you have to buy from GW in the form of White Dwarf.

Captain Strong said:

Wizards of the coast is *not* bad at proofreading. Their products have little to no grammatical errors, compared to GW products which are abysmal, and sometimes even a little unclear. Although both release errata, Wizards releases it to fix loopholes, while GW uses them mostly to clarify their own misuse of the English language. Errors exist even within codices: the statline of a unit and its quick reference counterpart are often different: there is no reason for this at all. None. The fact that GW doesn't bother to proofread its own material shows its regard for the gaming community.



The manager at my local store has told me otherwise. GW sets prices for stores to sell it at, doesn't allow my store to sell bitz, and sends people to check in on it from time to time. The fact that another of my local stores has stopped carrying GW at its own loss should lend credence to my argument. So I do know my facts.



Your logic is flawed here. Wizards has more products to take care of, so they issue updates more frequently? That is to say, several articles a week by Wizards employees to keep the gaming community involved is just standard, compared to an article or two by an R&D person at GW whenever they release something? There hasn't been a hobby article on the GW site since the templars came out, excepting Black Gobbo, which comes out once in a while. And the real meaty stuff, the articles that Wizards gives away for free, you have to buy from GW in the form of White Dwarf.

Click to expand...

If WOTC was not bad at proof reading why on earth would they need to release errata? Think about it. I fully agree with you that companies should be better about checking thier product for errors. But GW is not alone in this and unless you are going to say that all companies that lack proof reading abilities are bad you shouldn't label one. An error is an error and I don't see how you are able to distinguish between them with WOTC and GW. Shall we agree that they both make mistakes and work to correct them when they can?

The manager at your local store doesn't seem to have all the information. Let me say it again - I have BOUGHT bitz from Art's Bargain's before as well as buying from them at a discount via an 800 number. It is possible. I can't vouche for them still doing the bitz but their website suggests they are still giving discounts. You don't know the facts just because a local store manager told you so. He is wrong. I have shown the prove right here. Do a little independent research on your own.

My logic is not flawed. Wizards of the coast has a much broader product release than GW does. This is a fact. Take a look at what comes out each year for its wide range of stuff. They make a ton of product for dungeons and dragons alone, not to mentions star wars, a plethora of trading card games, etc. a few articles a week could be comparable to what GW releases on its website. Don't get me wrong - I like WOTC, I play dungeons and dragons and I am happy with all that they offer. However as others have pointed out WOTC can't be directly compared to GW as their games are different. The kinds of articles you will find between the two will differ quite a bit.

As for lack of articles - Oh my black templars came out so long ago! You also admit that they did release more articles in the black gobbo (I consider that support) by the way it comes out every other week. GW offers a wide variety of hobby related articles free of charge from their website so I really don't know what you are expecting? Not to mention ideas for different types of games etc. White Dwarf fills this out quite well.

I am sorry but I don't see much to back up your complaints.

Cheers,

-Mike

My dear Captain Strong,

I agree with your criticism of grammatical errors in codexes (for example, the armor save of terminators in the recently released "Wargear" manual). Yet as slorak said, (and to paraphrase a famous quote) the simple existence of grammatical errors does not a tyrannical game company make.

That being said, the griping about high prices gets a little old and really has no basis. Sure, they have increased the cost of marines 3 fold (IF you consider that a 10-man tac squad now costs the same as the old rogue-trader era beakies box that allowed the creation of 30 marines). Yet I can tell you that the QUALITY of the plastics has improved immensely (and, I might add, disproportionally to the unit cost, with better quality at lower cost).

Yet even if you view my proposition as biased, consider this. Most new videogames today cost about $50 a piece, and on the average offer about 10 hours of gameplay before you have beaten the thing and grown tired of it. For that amount you can buy many armys' battleforce box and game for virtually unlimited hours, not even counting the painting, the convertuing etc. Furthermore, the game itself is YOUR creation, you make the army to YOUR liking, the heroes are YOUR creation, as are the villains.

Consider also that you have a large number of readily available and popular minis, vehicles, armies and styles of play at your disposal, not to mention a ton of opponents. Sure, you may find games with cheaper unit parts, but I would challenge you to find another similar wargame with as many players, or diversity of units as GW. Heroclix? You never know what you're going to get in a booster pack until you BUY it (which is like an "idiot tax" if you ask me, as people are essentially "rolling the dice" that they will get a booster that has that powerful figure in it. If they end up with 22 "armed thugs", having wasted $50, so be it). At least you know what yopu're getting with GW, and if the box isn't complete, they will replace it FREE OF CHARGE.

So though the prices may be higher than they were in the past, it is still not an outrageously expensive hobby, if you think about it ( I was actually going to use the paintball hobby example too, Deek. Good call! )


Just my 2 cents.