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Hive Fleet Pandora
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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
While preparing for an apoc battle (I've decided to use my nids), I've just realized how good a Harridan is. He is really expensive (900pts!) but I'm now beginning to see why.

Firstly he's a gargantuan creature AND a flyer. He's got 2 bio-cannons which can put out 6 S10 shots each and at 2 different targets. He can move 24", shoot and still assault (GC's don't have the same limitations with regards to shooting and assaulting as regular 40k units). He can just leave the table and return next turn anywhere on the table. Talk about mobility!

But it's the fact that he is a flyer which makes him particularly nasty. Unless you have anti-aircraft (AA) guns, he is hit only on a 6 in shooting. Anyone shooting at him has their range reduced by 12" (thus lascannons and missile launchers are only 36" when shooting at flyers). Weapons that do not roll to hit using BS (i.e. blast weapons) cannot hit flyers unless they're AA-mounted. His shots hit at the full 48" range and against vehicles, always hit side armor. He cannot be assaulted unless he himself assaults a unit. He's got T8 and 6W. He is just super-tough to kill!

I think I need to get a harridan for my future army.


BTW this is how it looks like.
 

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Hive Fleet Pandora
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Yes. I forgot to mention that he is also a transport for gargoyles and can carry 20 of them. Too bad gargolyes aren't scoring units though.
 

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Supreme Evil Overlord
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Just to correct one minor pint, the Harridan is NOT a flyer, it does not have the flyer rule in it's unit description, so no need 6's to hit ( didn'have this in the old FW rules ), would say it does get the 12"reduction.
It is a beautifull model adn very large as well, certainly a great centerpiece for any nid army.
 

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Hive Fleet Pandora
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Discussion Starter · #5 · (Edited)
According to the more updated Imperial Armour Apocalypse (2008 ), this is what it says:

"FLYER: The Harridan can fly up to 24" per turn."

That's a great case in saying it's a flyer, only it moves 24" instead of the usual 36" other flyers move.

If you're looking at the older Imperial Armour Vol 4 rules - it's there where it's a flyer that is hit on regular BS, not 6's. However, in that volume, it's bio-cannon is only Assault 1, Large blast. I'm talking about the more updated Imperial Armour Apocalypse book.
 

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Supreme Evil Overlord
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Nope, if it was a flyer it would say type: Gargantuan creature, flyer which is clearly does NOT.
It then lists special rules: flyer and adds a description of what that special rule does.

All other flyers have Type: flyer or superheavy flyer, the Harridan does NOT, it's crystal clear the Harridan is not a flyer.
 

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Hive Fleet Pandora
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Discussion Starter · #7 · (Edited)
In the older Imperial Armour Vol 4, it explicitly states that the Harridan is a flyer and follows the rules for a flyer. Even though the more updated Imperial Armour Apocalypse doesn't say FLYER in its type (it does explicitly say it in its special rules), I'm sure you get the RAI from it.

Also An'ggrath has daemonic flight (in it's special rules), though in its type it doesn't explicitly say that it is Jump Infantry. Still you have to follow the rules for Jump Infantry (and the rules for Gargantuan Creatures) in regards to how you treat An'ggrath (with the exception that is stated in his special rules). The same would apply to the Harridan.

Thus, RAI it is a flyer. It's special rules say it's a flyer. To me, the only thing that is crystal clear is that it is a flyer. You can't have partials (i.e. it isn't hit only on a 6 yet ranged weapons are at -12" to target it).

PS - It says it moves at 24" to differentiate how this flyer moves compared to standard flyers. Basically, the 24" move is the only exception to the flyer rules. Everything else follows normal flyer rules (except any flyer rule involving vehicles which it isn't).
 

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Supreme Evil Overlord
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I'd have to disagree, even the old IA rules said that it only got the 12" reduction all the other flyer rules didn't apply to Harridan.

As for Ang'grath, it's a mute point anyway as his rules are still it's old pre=apocalypse rule,s back then he was just a monstrous creature, the wings allowed him a 12"move but now with him beeing a gargantuan creature the wings barely have use.

IMO if it was to be like a flyer and I would love for it to be that way shouldn't it then also say in the flyer special that the Harridan would also follow for flyers as written in apocalypse.
 

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Hive Fleet Pandora
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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
The Harridan is a Gargantuan Creature, but it doesn't explicitly say that it has to follow all the rules for a Gargantuan Creature. It doesn't need to. The fact that it says it's a GC is enough. Likewise, the fact that it says the Harridan is a Flyer in its special rules is enough to qualify it as one.

The closest parallel I can think of in 40k are the Necron Destroyer and Heavy Destroyer. While it doesn't explicitly say they are of the type 'bike', for all intents and purposes, they are jetbikes as it says so in their special rules and follow all the rules for jetbikes.
 

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Have they decided to change Harridans into males for Apoc? =D It has been referred to as "Brood Mother" previously, and up to IA4 the references I can recall have been either female or a nondescript "it"...

As for rules, GW has a way with annoying wording, but from how jv2 is presenting it, I am thinking that he's probably on the right track. My current reference for Harridan remains IA4 which is rather out of date... Are there any "multiclass" vehicles/creatures, ie. which would have more than one type listed in the Unit Type category? Superheavy Flyers exist, but they seem more like a type of their own rather than a combination of two. Think I'll need to have a look at IA Apoc myself.

Until then, my take is that the previous rules (up to IA4) stated explicitly the point where the Flyer rules for the Harridan differed from the regular Flyer rules (ie. being easier to hit). If this exception is no longer there, then it no longer applies and Harridan follows normal rules for Flyers except for the note on movement distance. Unless of course the rules have a mention somewhere of requiring a certain amount of distance moved for some benefits? If not, the prey is all out of luck in trying to shoot it down without AA mounts...
 

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Blood Boy
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The Imperial armour rules for the Harridan and the Apocalypse rules should be kept separate. In Imperial armour it is, well, crap. Point for point the Imperial armour Harridan is the worst model in the game, even cannon fodder, Spinegaunts and Grots are better at being cannon fodder than the Harridan is at being big and shooty.

The Imperial armour one is hit normally even though it's a flyer. No rolls of six needed to hit. The Apocalypse one may be different, it's ability in the game seems to be far superior to the older version of the Harridan. Checking if it is hit on sixes will be required, it is likely that sixes aren't needed to hit it.
 

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Hive Fleet Pandora
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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Let me re-iterate that the only thing it says in the newer IAA (under its special rules) is this:

"FLYER: The Harridan can fly up to 24" per turn."

It does not say anything about what you need to roll to hit it, thus you follow the default flyer rules which is it's hit on 6's if the gun is not AA-mounted. The only thing that differs is that it moves at 24" instead of the 36" that flyers normally move.
 

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Nox
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No mate. Let's take another example.

The eldar Pathfinder special rule means any hit roll made by Pathfinders of 5+ makes the shot AP1, and gives them a +2 bonus to cover saves. Therefore Pathfinders in the Tau codex are AP1 on a 5+, and get a +2 bonus to cover.

Just because things have the same name does NOT mean they follow the same rules. The Flyer rule that the harridan has means it moves 24". This is the RAI. It is not a "Gargantuan Flyer" as has been pointed out before. It is a gargantuan creature with a special rule allowing it to move 24".

Also you seem to misunderstand the flyer rule. It is not they can move up to 36" a turn. It is they MUST move at LEAST 36" a turn. Which is why eldar flyers are the shizz, because they don't need to move nearly that far.

This reminds me of that guy in the tau forums arguing devilfish were a troop choice.
 

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i think the flyer term was, whilst slighlty badly named, coined up simply to cover the fact that no non-vehicle moves that fast to my knowlege.

what could you call it? its too fast to be jump infantry, not a vehicle so it cant be fast and too slow to be an actuall flyer. (i belive theres a section somewhere saying the harridan flaps, making it a lot slower, meaning usual flyer bonuses are ignored or something.)

so stupidly they gave it the rule the name becuase its faster than normal and can fly.
 

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Hive Fleet Pandora
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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
No mate. Let's take another example.

The eldar Pathfinder special rule means any hit roll made by Pathfinders of 5+ makes the shot AP1, and gives them a +2 bonus to cover saves. Therefore Pathfinders in the Tau codex are AP1 on a 5+, and get a +2 bonus to cover.
But there is no such type as "pathfinder" defined in the rulebooks. Besides, pathfinder as a name is different than pathfinder as a special rule, just as chaos daemons are different from chaos marines or eldars are different from dark eldars. The fact that the 'word' appears as part of the name has nothing to do with any special rules the unit has.

Just because things have the same name does NOT mean they follow the same rules.
Right. No argument there. Harridan does not have the same name as anything else.

The Flyer rule that the harridan has means it moves 24". This is the RAI. It is not a "Gargantuan Flyer" as has been pointed out before. It is a gargantuan creature with a special rule allowing it to move 24".
Then how does it move 24"? Does it move like a jetbike? Or a jump infantry? Or just regular infantry? What rules do you follow governing how it moves? Why do they even have to label the special rule as "Flyer" as opposed to "jump infantry" if the Harridan doesn't use any of the rules of a flyer?

All I know is that everyone who plays necron destoyers follow all the rules of jetbikes for them - they ignore all terrain, are relentless, can turboboost 24" and gets the 3+ cover by doing so - even though they aren't of the type "bike".

Or that space marine captains who take bikes as options has all the characteristics of the type "bike" even though they aren't labeled as the type "bike".

Or Vanguards with jump packs - they're not listed as "jump infantry" yet they would follow all the rules for jump infantry.

Or Talos of the Dark Eldar - he's clearly a skimmer, his special rules say so, yet he is not of the type "skimmer".

My point is that it doesn't necessarily need to be listed under its "Type" in order to take on the characteristics of that "type".

Also you seem to misunderstand the flyer rule. It is not they can move up to 36" a turn. It is they MUST move at LEAST 36" a turn. Which is why eldar flyers are the shizz, because they don't need to move nearly that far.
Oh, I completely understand the flyer rule. Which is why the Harridan is so great - because he doesn't have to always move 36" each turn. That is why the book states that he can move up to 24" - because it's pointing out the exception to the normal flyer rules.

This reminds me of that guy in the tau forums arguing devilfish were a troop choice.
No argument there. Transports, and any vehicles, can never be a scoring unit. But in the case of the Harridan, even though the special rules state that it is a flyer, I'm not sure why people aren't seeing that. You'd think a necron destroyer is a normal infantry even though its special rules say otherwise.
 

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Supreme Evil Overlord
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That is because they have special wargear that actually says they move like a certain type.
Like the necron destroyers for instance, their FaQ explicetly mentions they move like jetbikes, the same goes for vanguard with Jumppacks as the jumppacks themselves explicitely mentions this.
The Harridan "flyer rule" does not say it moves like a flyer, only that it can move up to 24".
 

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Hive Fleet Pandora
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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
That is because they have special wargear that actually says they move like a certain type.
Like the necron destroyers for instance, their FaQ explicetly mentions they move like jetbikes, the same goes for vanguard with Jumppacks as the jumppacks themselves explicitely mentions this.
The Harridan "flyer rule" does not say it moves like a flyer, only that it can move up to 24".
How does it move 24"? Does it move like regular infantry, having to take terrain tests going through difficult/dangerous terrain. Can it move through impassable terrain? Does it get cover saves for moving so fast? Can it assault after moving 24"? What rules do you follow for this 24" movement? Infantry, jump infantry, jetbike, skimmer, flyer?
 

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Hive Fleet Pandora
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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
I'm pretty sure I know what their answer will be, but I went ahead and asked anyways. Will let you guys know what their reply is....when they reply...if they reply. :p
 

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Nox
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When I said same name I was speaking of the rules, not the unit type. :soldier:


And it moves 24" in the way of it's unit type. A gargantuan creature.

Destroyers have been FaQd and have a special rule explaining how they act.

The Talos isn't a skimmer. It's a special rule with the same name as a unit type. You're interpreting that the same way you interpret the Harridan's flyer rule ^.^

A Harridan just moves 24", in the same manner as a Garg. Creature. It doesn't get the -12" range penalty. It can't leave the table.

And if it is a flyer, where are the rules on flyer's assaulting? ^.^

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