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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
On first glance of the new book I worry a bit about our magic capability.

In the previous rules a 1500 point army could maser 10 odd power dice + items which was a good amount against most armies except for ultra dispel ones. In 2000 points a Vampire Count + 2 Necromancers + items allowed for a decent sized pool of dice and less risk of dispelling.

In the new rules though I'm worried. To get anything above a Lvl 2 wizard costs a million points and even a Lvl 2 wizard base is restricted to a Lord or special character. Vampire heroes are only Lvl 1 wizards which is barely even worth a magic level and even our lovely Necromancers are only Lvl 1 now. With the amount of heroes you can take in a 1500 or 2000 point game I'm not sure we are that great at magic any more.

Who's good at comparing these things, has our magic capability improved or got worse and how can we optimize magic in the Lord/Hero section of a typical 1500/2000 army?

NB: - this is not a rant! :p
 

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To be fair, I would actually say the Vampire count magic phase has got stronger.

Yes the mages are now only lvl 1, but if you take vampiric powers and items, you can get a absurd amount of powerdice, and as you can cast the 3 necromancy spells more than once a phase, you can raise an obscene amount of zombies.

In the end, it isn't less powerful, just different.

ninja out
 

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LO Zealot
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no offense, but you're off your rocker. VC have the most powerful and disgusting magic phase in the game right now (we'll have to wait and see what the demons bring)

All the characters are actually pretty cheap for what they do. All are casters, all can get tons more power dice. All can cast good spells on 1 die multiple times. VC can totally abuse the magic phase. Even in a low point game, you can dominate the magic phase and for those who worry about spending too much on magic and not having a killer combat hero - - who cares. He's still tough and still dishes out serious hits. Grave Guard are better, Black Knights rock. Ethereals are still tough and the wraiths are now nasty (who needs a banshee with str5 ethereals with 3x attacks?)
 

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To be fair, I would actually say the Vampire count magic phase has got stronger.

Yes the mages are now only lvl 1, but if you take vampiric powers and items, you can get a absurd amount of powerdice, and as you can cast the 3 necromancy spells more than once a phase, you can raise an obscene amount of zombies.

In the end, it isn't less powerful, just different.

ninja out
i would agree with this.

vampires are only level 1, yes, but you can give them dark acolyte which makes them level 2, or master o the dark arts which makes them level 1 with 3 power dice. that means they can spam ion 3 times.

with a vampire lord, and 2 vampire heroes, i actually don't feel that i have a weakened magic phase. not with the ability to spam some of our spells. spam ion with the lower level mages, and then finish off with some of the bigger spells from the lord.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 · (Edited)
Just needed it put into context! :p Some tinkering with the lists maybe to see what can be achieved. I admit I like the fact that ION is now a 4+ cast for a half decent amount of zombies.......now it just waits to be seen how well zombies do now. I like 4 points a model, but STR/T2.......

Do people use Necromancers any more at Lvl 1 caster? I admit they are cheap but you're restricted on total heros in an army and the vampire heros can be much better casters. I like the fact that they are worth something now, the original thralls were rubbish. Even the Wight King looks nice now as well, but I prefer a hero who can cast spells.
 

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Do people use Necromancers any more at Lvl 1 caster? I admit they are cheap but you're restricted on total heros in an army and the vampire heros can be much better casters. I like the fact that they are worth something now, the original thralls were rubbish. Even the Wight King looks nice now as well, but I prefer a hero who can cast spells.
I'll be taking one, as he'll be a dedicated IoN spammer, and an arcane item caddy, most likely the Book of Arkhan or the Black Periapt. There just a nice addition that doesn't cost too much, and can carry 50 pts of magic goodness.
 

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overall, that's what i see necros as, cheap lvl 1 casters to use if you can't afford a vamp.

the good thing about necros is that with them, you can GUARANTEE vanhels danse macabre if you like.
 

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Heck no!

My magical Setup for 2000:

Lord
Level 3
Forbidden Lore
Dark Acolyte
Avatar of Death
Skull Staff
Crown of the Damned

Vampire
Dark Acolyte
Book of Arkhan

Vampire
Dark Acolyte
Avatar of Death
Hand of Nagash

2 Corpse Carts

Thats 4 Bound Spells, in addition to 10 Power Dice.

Not at all, and seeing as i can choose whatever magic i like :D

The two level 2's will most likely cast IoN, leaving the Lord 2 larger spells, which he will get off due to his staff ;)

Gimped? Not at all ;)

Im eager to try the 4 cleansing flare vampires too :p
 

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As A larf I thought of using a lord with Skull Staff AND the staff of sorcery.

+1 to cast from the lord and +2 to dispel.........

Plus some vampire arcane powers for some stupid magic flying around......... 6 dice + 2 pool = 8 IoN per turn cast on a 3+!!!!

Against ogres you are dispelling on........ 2+! That I'll force more than one dice per spell.

HAHAHAHAHA!!!!
 

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LO Zealot
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As A larf I thought of using a lord with Skull Staff AND the staff of sorcery.

+1 to cast from the lord and +2 to dispel.........

Plus some vampire arcane powers for some stupid magic flying around......... 6 dice + 2 pool = 8 IoN per turn cast on a 3+!!!!

Against ogres you are dispelling on........ 2+! That I'll force more than one dice per spell.

HAHAHAHAHA!!!!

The Skull Staff and the Staff of Sorcery are both arcane, so they'd have to be split among two characters.

IMO, though, vampire summoning got a lot better. Sure, you cannot raise units as much (no skels, no summoning stuff from board edges), but it's *a lot* easier to raise units back / above starting wounds. It's pretty easy to have fighty vampires with the Lord of the Dead to simply raise and raise and raise skeletons on a 3+ (when you factor in the +1). They can cast the spell multiple times per phase, too, so you're going to drain magic defense fairly quickly when you're doing it 8-9 times a turn.

You also now have the ability to heal other units... huge! Grave Guard are now worth taking, getting d6 back per invocation. Or d6+1 if a corpse cart is nearby. Or raising back a [high point] blood knight model? Awesome.
 

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The Skull Staff and the Staff of Sorcery are both arcane, so they'd have to be split among two characters.
Just out of interest - The Skull Staff says "the bearer has +1" but the Staff of Sorcery just states "+1 to dispel" so can they be combined? Even if carried by two separate characters?
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
I overlooked the fact that Grave Guard can be ressed back - thats brill, looks like my 2 units of GG from the previous book can finally be used again!

Not sure on the Skull Staff really - for 50points I want more than just +1 to cast. But Dark Acolyte is a must and possibly Forbidden Lore as well.

I don't see many people use the Sceptre De Noirot item. Why is that? D3 + 9 zombies seems cool to me!
 

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Just out of interest - The Skull Staff says "the bearer has +1" but the Staff of Sorcery just states "+1 to dispel" so can they be combined? Even if carried by two separate characters?
I'd assume that it means the bearer gets +1 to dispel, though the wording does leave it open for beardy as hell pedantic players to quibble about it.

Or you can take Manfredd and have both on the same character to sidestep the issue
 

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no offense, but you're off your rocker. VC have the most powerful and disgusting magic phase in the game right now (we'll have to wait and see what the demons bring)
Well I wouldn't go as far as to say that Vampire Counts have the most powerful magic phase in the game at the moment. I'd still rank them behind a few other armies including:

- Lizardmen (Slann)
- Tzeentch (both Beasts and Hordes)
- Tomb Kings
- High Elves
- possibly Skaven

However, that isn't to say they don't have a strong magic phase. I wouldn't say it's the best though.
 

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LO Zealot
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;Y
Well I wouldn't go as far as to say that Vampire Counts have the most powerful magic phase in the game at the moment. I'd still rank them behind a few other armies including:

- Lizardmen (Slann) not that great, can't come up with the power dice like VC and once you spend the points for them, he still can't fight. VC rocks the magic phase and can still stay alive.
- Tzeentch (both Beasts and Hordes) granted they can get the dice, but the lore stinks, and is so unpredictable, that it usually doesn't affect the game much
- Tomb Kings their magic is so predictable, that you can counter it too easily for it to be dominating. I've never had a problem with TK magic, ever.
- High Elves good magic, but mostly defensive, and they're always outnumbered 2.5:1 at least.
- possibly Skaven Here would be a challenger. Their magic is sick, but no one plays them around here, so I always forget about them.

However, that isn't to say they don't have a strong magic phase. I wouldn't say it's the best though.
I think High elves and skaven could be strong, but the VC magic seems to have the ability to make and break the game. Skaven too. HE magic is much better than it was before, but I'd still say it's a sublevel to VC. Now if I could regenerate wounds to my Swordmasters, Phoenix Guard and Dragon Princes as many times as I wanted on a 3+ with as many dice as I had available, I would agree, their magic would be the best ;Y
 

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Well I wouldn't go as far as to say that Vampire Counts have the most powerful magic phase in the game at the moment. I'd still rank them behind a few other armies including:

- Lizardmen (Slann)
- Tzeentch (both Beasts and Hordes)
- Tomb Kings
- High Elves
- possibly Skaven

However, that isn't to say they don't have a strong magic phase. I wouldn't say it's the best though.
Tzeentch is terrible due to Tzeentch lore. The best you can say is that they're hard to dispel due to having a lot of dice, but who cares really when their magic is so random and watered down in effect?

For me it would be more like:

Lizardmen (sorry to the guy who says they can't get that many dice-- Slann can generate as many dice as any other list, once you include the bonus for early generation, etc)

High Elves and Vampire Counts tied. Both have useful lores, both can choose the spells they need, both can generate a ton of dice, and both have useful bound spells. In a head to head matchup the HEs would get the edge due to their great magic defenses, but they'd need the edge since they have nothing to match a Vampire Lord in combat.

Skaven and O&G tied.

Every one else in any order you want.
 

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I think we have a very powerful magic phase .I don't think the lore of vampires is that great unless you know all the spells which is why I love forbidden lore. Invocation is our most used spell and now it can be combined with other great lores like fire, heavens, shadow. We have a strong magic phase but I believe its not due to our lore, but due to options forbidden lore can give.
 

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I think we have a very powerful magic phase .I don't think the lore of vampires is that great unless you know all the spells which is why I love forbidden lore. Invocation is our most used spell and now it can be combined with other great lores like fire, heavens, shadow. We have a strong magic phase but I believe its not due to our lore, but due to options forbidden lore can give.
That's a good point. The bound spells alone can kill an enemy. Any army should take advantage of its strengths, right? Maybe going magic strong is the way.

It's just those damned miscasts I hate.



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I played a 3000 against a Lizardmen player who loves his Slann and I wasn't actually trying to magic heavy as I took Blood Knights, a Varghulf and didn't even use all my character slots, and I was suprised to see I ended up with 18 power and 9 dispel as well as a few bound spells and such. It was a pleasant surprise for my first decent sized battle with the new VC.
In case your wondering
Mannfred, Vampire Lord with DA, and 3 Vampires w/ Dark Acolyte(DA) one of whom was a BSB.
 
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