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Hi there !

New to 40k and the Tau. 3 questions……….

  • The rule about pinning weapons, does that mean if I have say 10 Firewarriors and 2 of them have pulse carbines that if either of them cause a casualty the unit is pinned or does the entire Tau unit ned to use pulse carbines for that to happen ?

2. Like above 2 warriors take pulse carbines which include the photon launcher, does the entire unit count as having photon grenades during the assault phase or only the models with the carbines ? I assume not since all you would have to do is take 1 pulse carbine and save points on the photon grenade option at least until the pulse carbine guy was killed I guess.

  • On Crisis suits , you have to take 3 weapon / systems. But is there a limit as to the number of things the leader can take with his options ? Could you end up with a Crisis suit with say 7 weapon/systems [ knowing that you can't have more than 3 weapons ] ?
 

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Firstly welcome to the forum and playing tau. As for the questions;

1. Any wound caused by a pulse carbine would require the enemy to take a pinning test doesn't matter how many pulse carbines you take but the wound has to come from one of their shots. I would recomend you stick with the pulse rifles though, much more effective in all situations except for if your moving and wish to fire between 12 and 18 inches.

2. No photon grenades, they're a separate upgrade.

3. You can only ever have 3 weapons/support systems on battlesuit including broadsides, commanders and stealth suits. You can however take as many hard wired systems as you like so long as the model was allowed them in the first place.
 

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Welcome to the forum. Word of advice... Ease up on the goofy formatting and HTML in the future, it makes it very difficult to quote.


The rule about pinning weapons, does that mean if I have say 10 Firewarriors and 2 of them have pulse carbines that if either of them cause a casualty the unit is pinned or does the entire Tau unit ned to use pulse carbines for that to happen ?
You are correct, but you must roll the carbines seperately so that you know if they are the hits that cause pinning or not. The pulse rifle is usually considered to be superior because of the rapid fire (more shots) and since you will never want to assault with fire warriors anyway.

Like above 2 warriors take pulse carbines which include the photon launcher, does the entire unit count as having photon grenades during the assault phase or only the models with the carbines ? I assume not since all you would have to do is take 1 pulse carbine and save points on the photon grenade option at least until the pulse carbine guy was killed I guess.
Pulse carbines do not include photon grenades - the mention of the photon grenade launcher for the carbines is fluff as far as I can tell. If you purchase photon grenades for the unit, every model must be equipped with them, meaning they cost 1 point per model in the unit. I guess it just means that a model with a carbine does not have to be modeled with grenades as they can be included on the weapon, but the model with the carbine does not have grenades unless you pay the points cost to get them.

On Crisis suits , you have to take 3 weapon / systems. But is there a limit as to the number of things the leader can take with his options ? Could you end up with a Crisis suit with say 7 weapon/systems (knowing that you can't have more than 3 weapons) ?
All Crisis suits can have 3 and only 3 Weapon/Support systems. You can not purchase more than three under any circumstances. If you wish to give the suits more, they may still purchase wargear if they are either commanders or team leaders.

.
 

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1. Any wound caused by a pulse carbine would require the enemy to take a pinning test
Actually, a casualty is needed for a pinning weapon to incur the test.

As per page 32 of the bgb, under "Pinning Weapons".
 

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1. The rule about pinning weapons, does that mean if I have say 10 Firewarriors and 2 of them have pulse carbines that if either of them cause a casualty the unit is pinned or does the entire Tau unit ned to use pulse carbines for that to happen ?
They way youd do that is roll the carbine shot as different colored dice... that way you can keep track of what those 2 carbines actualy did in that shooting phase. If For example both hit the target, along with some others... and those 2 special dice sucessfully wounded (likely with Tau shooty guns), with... say 4 other normal pulse rifle wounds... then the victim has to make 6 armor/cover saves. Let say he saved against all but one of those wounds... well, there is no separating of those groups of 'bullets that got through', so it can be said that the one that did the killing was the carbine! In this way, the Carbine actually caused a casualty, and then the victims have to make a leadership check or be pinned.

Some important points of note to consider:
- If, say 2 carbines were claimed to 'have caused a casualty' or a full 12, there is still only one pinning check... When it says they may take multiple pinning checks in one turn, they mean from different units, throughout the turn.

-Against marines, it will usually be a 10 or less that they have to roll to avoid being pinned

-Fearless units can never be pinned.

- Tau Markerlights can affect this leadership check, causing a stackable -1 to that check


2. Like above 2 warriors take pulse carbines which include the photon launcher, does the entire unit count as having photon grenades during the assault phase or only the models with the carbines ? I assume not since all you would have to do is take 1 pulse carbine and save points on the photon grenade option at least until the pulse carbine guy was killed I guess.
The photon grenade launchers on a Carbine are in no way considered the photon grenade upgrade. They are there to represent the "woa!! what was THAT?!?" factor of the carbine shooting that actually causes the pinning- as its imagined that the carbine is firing while lobbing photon grenade discs simultaneously.

But there is a shady and sneaky way to get what you want, at least with EMP grenades: the Shas'Ui team leader can buy items from the armory, and the armory included both grenades... so the squad can have no grenades, but the 'Ui 'seargent' is packing a special suprise... so when he makes that 'suicidal Death or Glory' stand against a Tank, or the Firewarriros assault a tank for some weird reason... well, theres a reason hidden in there somewhere.. isnt there? [insert SLY smiley here, something this board doenst have, that I doulw use all the time]

There is a massive grey area regarding only the seargent packing photons, as I dont think that that would give the unit the benefit. They way I think that would work is: the Shas'Ui gains the benefit of those grenades only after all the rest of his guys are dead.. and then he gets assaulted. Only in that case can the unit be 'equipped with photon grenades', So Photon grenades are silly, but that EMP grenade is a great cheap and sneaky way to spend the last few points when you build your army.


3. On Crisis suits , you have to take 3 weapon / systems. But is there a limit as to the number of things the leader can take with his options ? Could you end up with a Crisis suit with say 7 weapon/systems [ knowing that you can't have more than 3 weapons ] ?
The important thing to realise here is that a Crisis Suit only has 3 'attachment points', and all of those attachment points must be filled. They dont have to be all weapons, and remember that the suit can only shoot 1 weapon a turn (2 if he takes a multitracker), as things like shield Generators, Targeting Arrays, and such have to be mounted on one of these hardpoints.

When you think that a commander (or team leader) can have 7 systems... what were really talking about is his 3 hardpoints filled, and all the rest are 'hardwired'.. basically, cybernetically in his skull. Only hardwired items on the wargear list can be hardwired... therefore, there is no such thing as a hardwired Shield Generator. ( as I imagine it would give them quite a headache)

It a bit vague how it works, but If you flip open to pg 25 of the Tau Codex, the chart is divided into three columns, right? Columns 1 and 2 (weapons and support systems) are all the options that have to take up a Crisis Attachment point. The last column (wargear) is the special stuff that doesnt require an attachment point, and some of those are Hard Wired, as you see Only thoe that can buy wargear can chose from that list. (so the other two crisis suits, or a crisis team with no team leader, are stuck with columns 1 and 2 only. The special issue stuff, either weapons, support, or wargear, are only mountable on models that allow special issue gear- but that should be obvious.
 

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They way youd do that is roll the carbine shot as different colored dice... that way you can keep track of what those 2 carbines actualy did in that shooting phase. If For example both hit the target, along with some others... and those 2 special dice sucessfully wounded (likely with Tau shooty guns), with... say 4 other normal pulse rifle wounds... then the victim has to make 6 armor/cover saves. Let say he saved against all but one of those wounds... well, there is no separating of those groups of 'bullets that got through', so it can be said that the one that did the killing was the carbine! In this way, the Carbine actually caused a casualty, and then the victims have to make a leadership check or be pinned.
Wrong. Your opponent would take the saves for the carbine(s) separately.

Your idea of giving just a Shas'Ui an EMP grenade is correct, but why you risk it? You damage it 50% of the time, and then you have to Stun it or better (Shaking it won't do).
If you fail any of that, your 'Ui is dead, and now you have to take a LD check at Ld7.
 

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I'll recheck myself, but I'll need a reference of where you think thats wrong: where you differentiate Pulse standard shots from pinning shots-within the same unit.

The thing is: The only time you separate any groups of shots within a groups' firing.. is when some of those shots negate armor saves... in that case the shots are handled as separate batches [ref: pg 24]. All other shots are saved against as a group of 'number of saves' that have to be rolled against, and then any saves that failed are the number of wounds that get assigned. At this point there is no more "oh that was the carbine, or that was the heavy bolter that got ya".. because everything is done as a group. [pg 26, para 1-2]

Pinning weapons strictly says [pg32]:
When the firing of a single enemy unit inflicts casualties with pinning weapons, the target must take al eadership test to...
- since you dont separate the pinning bullets from the normal bullets after you have shown that at least one of those pinning weapons succesffully wounded, then in this unusual Tau case, in can be said:
"the firewarrior unit had pinning weapons and inflicted casualties."

Note that its not automatic, and you do indeed check range, roll to hit, and roll to wound with separate colored dice for those pinning weapons, to keep track of how those pinning weapons acted. But, once it gets past the wounding stage... its "in". And then, as long as at least one of the targets actually failed a save and died... then the pinning test is made.

That is the way that I have always seen it, and, rechecking the rulebook, thats remains the way that I interpret the workings, and I have shown you the workings of it. By all means show me where I have gotten it wrong... but dont just tell me where Im wrong... show me. I'm all for being corrected correctly, but if it was something that you were told/taught... well then, its unfortunate that you were told/taught wrong. And try not to fall into that camp of 'allocating hits' nonsense, as that is a fundamentally wrong way to handle shooting.

This is about teaching a new player how to play RIGHT, remember, and that is why being certain is so important in this.
 

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I'll recheck myself, but I'll need a reference of where you think thats wrong: where you differentiate Pulse standard shots from pinning shots-within the same unit.

The thing is: The only time you separate any groups of shots within a groups' firing.. is when some of those shots negate armor saves... in that case the shots are handled as separate batches [ref: pg 24]. All other shots are saved against as a group of 'number of saves' that have to be rolled against, and then any saves that failed are the number of wounds that get assigned. At this point there is no more "oh that was the carbine, or that was the heavy bolter that got ya".. because everything is done as a group. [pg 26, para 1-2]

Pinning weapons strictly says [pg32]:

- since you dont separate the pinning bullets from the normal bullets after you have shown that at least one of those pinning weapons succesffully wounded, then in this unusual Tau case, in can be said:
"the firewarrior unit had pinning weapons and inflicted casualties."

Note that its not automatic, and you do indeed check range, roll to hit, and roll to wound with separate colored dice for those pinning weapons, to keep track of how those pinning weapons acted. But, once it gets past the wounding stage... its "in". And then, as long as at least one of the targets actually failed a save and died... then the pinning test is made.

That is the way that I have always seen it, and, rechecking the rulebook, thats remains the way that I interpret the workings, and I have shown you the workings of it. By all means show me where I have gotten it wrong... but dont just tell me where I'm wrong... show me. I'm all for being corrected correctly, but if it was something that you were told/taught... well then, its unfortunate that you were told/taught wrong. And try not to fall into that camp of 'allocating hits' nonsense, as that is a fundamentally wrong way to handle shooting.

This is about teaching a new player how to play RIGHT, remember, and that is why being certain is so important in this.
Sorry Calaban your wrong and the Carrot is correct, the rule book says " when the firing of a single unit inflicts casualties with a PINNING WEAPON".
What you are saying is as long as the weapon wounds then you can roll all the saves together and then simply "claim" the wound is from a pulse carbine without having to substantiate that claim, how very convenient for you eh.

What you are missing is the fact that the rule book says it has to be a casualty from a pinning weapon. Please study that sentence, it is structured in a totally unambiguous fashion, it is straight forward and to the point. What it is saying is this:
(1) The unit fires with at least one pinning weapon
(2) The unit wounds with at least one pinning weapon
(3) The wounded individual rolls a save against the pinning weapon
(4) If the model fails the save from the pinning weapon it becomes a casualty inflicted by a pinning weapon
(5) A pinning test is then rolled due to the casualty inflicted by said pinning weapon

This means you have to hit, wound and fail the save from the firing of a pinning weapon.

If we follow your skewed logic, if no proof has to be presented that said casualty came from a pinning weapon (in the form of different coloured die) then I as your opponent could argue quite legitimately in certain circumstances, that the casualty came from a non pinning weapon (if all the saves are rolled as one with same colour die) and refuse to take a pinning test.
How do you prove the casualty came from a pinning weapons fire huh and not the Pulse Rifle?. You say it does not say in the book to roll different die for the weapons, so thats great for me as your opponent, because you can never prove the CASUALTY came from the Pulse Carbines, result for me eh 8Y8Y. Same goes for any weapon with an effect that differs from any of the units other weapons, brilliant.
In a Fire Warrior unit with less carbines than rifles I could always claim that the casualties came from the rifles. The only way I could not argue this is of all the saves were failed, or there were say 2 carbine wounds and one rifle wound and two saves were failed (then one has to be a pin)

Ok the pinning weapon may well have wounded, but thats not what the pinning test relies on, what it does rely on is a model failing a save from a pinning weapon and becoming a casualty from a pinning weapon.

The rule says " when the shooting of a single enemy unit inflicts casualties with pinning weapons" (paraphrased to avoid copyright) and not " when the shooting of a single enemy including pinning weapons inflicts casualties" a subtle but important difference. The former dictates that the casualties must come from the pinning weapons, but the latter states that the casualties can come from the shooting of a unit that just includes pinning weapons, do you see the difference?

When you are using different weaponry, with differing effects (be they AP, strength or pinning tests) you must use different coloured die to represent them, you must use the different coloured Die for each phase of the shooting turn (hit, wound and save) and IF you successfully inflict a casualty from the pinning weapon then and only then do you roll a pinning test.

I love the way you just ignore pertinent sections of rules like "when the firing of a single unit inflicts casualties with a PINNING WEAPON" where it categorically states that a pinning test comes from the result of a certain quite obviously and patently different type of weapon (in this case a pinning weapon).

If a weapon has any effect, rule or anything that differentiates it from other weapons in the unit, then you must use different coloured die (or roll the different weapons separately) for all rolls for that weapon (and that includes saves, unless no save is possible). It even tells you about this.
Just because it says "roll all saves together" it does not mean all saves are the same, only that you roll them " at the same time".

Oh and hits are allocated in many circumstances in 40K. For Tau the best example is the XV8 and Shield Drones mixed unit where the unit is shot by mixed AP weaponry, you have to allocate hits one at a time etc etc.

You seem to have a quite, how shall I say it "unique" way of looking at the rules for 40K. Unfortunately it does not seem to correspond that well with the actual rules for 40K.:|
 

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Riki's right, though. You have to roll the carbine dice separately, and not claim that the pinning weapon caused a casualty.
Katie my only intention was to explain as clearly as possible that you have to roll separate die for the two weapons types. I am not trying to start any war or degenerate the thread. I have no intention of getting into a flame war. I know no names are mentioned but I just wanted to make that known.0:
I do think Cal has a rather unique way of looking at some rules but thats not an insult as the same could be said of me and certain rules issues in the past.:D:p

Blue is correct, you cannot simply claim that a casualty is from a pinning weapon. Thing is though it is not a simple question as I will show. take the Codex entry for the Pulse Carbine, it is actually worded badly and can cause confusion, because it states that a pinning test is taken if any wounds are caused by a Pulse Carbine.
This differs from the 40K rule book which states casualties not wounds. After all someone can be wounded and not be a casualty and the rules sequence is hit, wound, roll save and remove casualties.

If you wanted to be pedantic it could be claimed that for the Carbine a pinning test is taken even if no casualties are caused as long as you get a wound result for a carbine on the die; however you would still need to use different die colours to differentiate the two weapons types in mixed weapon units, as it says wounds caused by carbine fire.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Am I reading it correctly that only Firewarriors and Pathfinders can only ride in Devilfish and you have to buy one squad to get the Devilfish . I wondered because it says that Crisis Suits can't fit in them but nothing about Stealth Suits not fitting , did I mie-understand a rule that would allow me to take a Devilfish alone and put a Stealth Suit team, drone squad, sniper drone team in it during the game ?

I also fought my first game . Tau vs Imperial Guard in Combat Patrol, also against a 1st time player.
It was shakey for a little while but the Tau prevailed [ for the greater good of course ].
Opponents really do hate jump shoot jump 8X
 

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The deep down truth
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Am I reading it correctly that only Firewarriors and Pathfinders can only ride in Devilfish and you have to buy one squad to get the Devilfish . I wondered because it says that Crisis Suits can't fit in them but nothing about Stealth Suits not fitting , did I mie-understand a rule that would allow me to take a Devilfish alone and put a Stealth Suit team, drone squad, sniper drone team in it during the game ?

I also fought my first game . Tau vs Imperial Guard in Combat Patrol, also against a 1st time player.
It was shakey for a little while but the Tau prevailed [ for the greater good of course ].
Opponents really do hate jump shoot jump 8X
Devilfish are always dedicated transports, the only way you can take one is by taking a Pathfinder unit or as a transport for a Fire Warrior unit, either way the DF can only be used by the unit it was bought for.

Cue the compulsory "Devilfish are not dedicated because they are a troop choice" arguments:z
 

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I cant wait to see if the 5th edition rules are true: that dedicated transports only requirement is to have their assigend unit in it at the start of the game, and that afterwards, it can transport whatever it wants, within its limitations... YAAY! Taxis everywhere!! We were right all along [sorta]!
 

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I cant wait to see if the 5th edition rules are true: that dedicated transports only requirement is to have their assigend unit in it at the start of the game, and that afterwards, it can transport whatever it wants, within its limitations... YAAY! Taxis everywhere!! We were right all along [sorta]!
Yeah I can see a whole new dynamic for the use of Devilfish, the tactical flexibility this will offer will really open up the Tau game. I wonder if Kroot will be allowed to use the DF because this will really enhance their survivability and make them a very efficient interdiction unit, Marine assault squad gettting to close, then just drop a 72pt unit in front of them (and a Devilfish) and rapid fire their ass, if they want to assault even better.8X
 

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I just had to look into that one about the wounding/pinning/etc. Just to put up some page refs:

P.22 BGB bottom right paragraph: last two lines: "..but as long as it's clear which dice rolls represent which shots..."

P.23 BGB right hand column, lines 4-7: "As with shooting, roll the dice together and, once again, you can use different coloured dice to pick out weapons with different [replace 'strengths' with 'characteristics'].

P.26/27 BGB fifth paragraph of "Remove Casualties": I included this one because it shows that wounds were taken against specific weapons: the meltagun and the krak missile allowed no save and so the model was removed. In addition therefore to the normal "I've just wounded you with the melta and the krak missile", there is the extra added ability of those two specific weapons to kill the model without recourse to its armour save.

In the case of a FW unit having both Carbines and Pulse Rifles, it would follow therefore that because the Carbine has a separate ability in addition to the normal "I have just wounded you", the save should be taken separately. To do it any other way would be almost certain to create an argumentative situation. The only time that you would not have to do this separation would be like this: you cause 6 wounds, one of which is from a Carbine, and the enemy fails all six armour saves. That way it is obvious that the Carbine has successfully wounded and killed an enemy model, therefore a pinning test would be required. Any other result however would mean that one#s opponent could say that only the Rifles had occasioned the kill.

E.
 
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