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Nox
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Well this is a thread on something Karmoon has named Hellstriking. This is when you deep strike en masse. Think say 2 oblits, a termie squad a raptor squad and a daemon prince. All in one go. Thats a Hellstrike. So this thread.

Well, can this work? I think its a very good idea, and fits my Night Lords very well, terror :)

So, what can people put forward on an army with about 50% of it deep striking. Im all for trying it!

Thoughts?

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problem is that it sounds nice, but there are a couple of catches...

1st. Your squads won't arrive simultaniously.

2nd. when you deep strike, you's not allowed to do anything, 'cept shootin.
thus making your units vunrable for the attack of an entire army.
result: a dead daemonprince...

3d. you won't have very much to begin with, so you's have to be really carefull not to die before your main army comes.


I', not saying this can't work, I'm just saying it's VERY difficult to get it working...
 

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Nox
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Indeed it is very much hit and miss. However most units will be shooty, so i get to pick targets (i want 3+ Oblits deffo). But yeah, hit and miss, it either works or dies horribly :)
 

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Swarm Queen of LO
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I think the key will be to have a solid core. The stuff that isn't deepstriking better be pretty solid. For that, I'd recommend not deepstriking the HQ, whatever it is. A few good sized, well-equipped marine squads, maybe a havoc squad too.

Once you have a good solid core - as a rule of thumb, I like to have min. 10 Chaos Marines (Note - this includes Chosen, Raptors & Havocs) or min. 8 Cult Marines for every 500 points - you can fill out the rest of the points with deepstriking fun. Also, I would focus on a large number of small deepstriking squads. 1-2 man Oblit squads, 3 man Termies w/ Combis, 5 man raptor squads.

This will help ensure you get more than one out on any given turn, place them where they will be able to do the most damage with one round of shooting and don't shed any tears when they die - the idea is to cause disruption and distraction while your Marines are busy winning the battle.
 

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One Awesome Dude
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A solid core, that has to withstand enemy fire well is probably a good idea. Also, you're going to want something that is also quite effective. Large squads - good. I'm thinking Plague Marines, or CSM with a Nurgle Icon would be good. Also, perhaps one or two fast moving CC units (I'm thinking Lash HQ, Bike Daemon Weapon Lord, or just bikers) could do well to tie up enemy squads on turn two to prevent your Deep Strikers from being shot to pieces during their vulnerable arrival stage. Icons, to help with precision, are a must methinks.

I think you're also going to want to have that 'solid core' to be doing something while they get pummeled. Perhaps some small sonic squads (*nods to Rabbit*) to provide support fire. Though these are a bit vulnerable and will need beefy units to screen them with this particular plan. Havocs, perhaps with a Nurgle Icon, could be useful - tough enough to take fire, but with weapons to make them dangerous from turn one.

Your Deep Strikers are going to want to be laying down punishment as soon as possible to make up for lost time. Terminator squads with lots of Combi-Plasma (and/or Meltas) seem like a good, obvious choice. I don't recommend DSing Raptors, it does get them close without casualties, but I think possible second turn charges are more effective for them, and it will keep one more unit from shooting the incoming units of yours.

While thinking on this, I think that Chosen could be really useful here. Get big units of them with an Icon, for precision strikes.

Hmmm, I shall think on this. I like this idea, I use it a lot actually - though somewhat less extreme. And 'hellstrike' sounds way too cool to NOT comment on. ;Y
 
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The other Kind of Fluff
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Grimmtue & Hotspike laid down the law on Hellstrike theory. As Hotspike suggested, chosen work exceptionally well, especially tooled up with the IoK (my particular favored unit in chaos). This tactics seems perfectly in line with Night Lords, hitting from all sides at once and through a sustained deep striking assault. You can also deep strike behind your lines so as to shield them from the enemy or at least reduce the incoming ranged hate that will inevitably follow. It's important that you deep strike as a support force to your main spearhead, rather than as a secondary independent force, which might often leave them vulnerable or out of the heat of battle.

I've seen Hellstrike work to great effect using the above strategy. In essence, you're side should be heavily outnumber early on, which will likely prompt your opponent into a frenzy of overconfidence. Use this to your advantage. When your opponent charges into your line (probably expecting a quick victory), reinforce from shallow orbit or flank his/her underbelly. Hellstrike flourishes in quick response and the ability to reinforce and sustain itself through continual deep strike. It can be a real pain in the arse to defend against this type of warfare, especially since so much of your army will be in holding.
 

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I was actually thinking about doing a list like this but with a nurgle/tzeench configuration.

Your initial landing will have to be supported by large numbers of obliterators. yeah its a crap load of points but should they scatter their long ranged weapons will help negate any significant deviation.

Imo it really depends on points value. while larger point battles will allow for a larger selection of tough deep striking units, smaller point battles will limit what exactly you can bring to bear especially since you are going to want to keep a strong core of units.

Perhaps a rhino equipped core army could be helpful by bringing their icons to help the oblits and termies land?
 

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Nox
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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
I was actually thinking about doing a list like this but with a nurgle/tzeench configuration.

Your initial landing will have to be supported by large numbers of obliterators. yeah its a crap load of points but should they scatter their long ranged weapons will help negate any significant deviation.

Imo it really depends on points value. while larger point battles will allow for a larger selection of tough deep striking units, smaller point battles will limit what exactly you can bring to bear especially since you are going to want to keep a strong core of units.

Perhaps a rhino equipped core army could be helpful by bringing their icons to help the oblits and termies land?
Very good suggestions. I play a Tzeentch List with 3x5 man Termie units who all Deep Strike, it plays very well.

Now im thinking we should compile a list of units which are useful in this type of army, i find shooting ideas into the open usually helps. So, here we go.

Im going to divide units into Hellstrikers and Ground mounted, and why theyre useful where they are :).

Hellstrikers
Obliterators (Obvious reasons, read the quote above this about Oblits, it pretty much sums it up)

Terminators (For the same reasons as obliterators, that and theyre fairly cheap, however an icon is almost essential as they generally need to be in rapid fire range)

Raptors (without doubt the most dubious, however if they come down in conjunction with units then theyre brilliant. I have also found deep striking raptors to be very useful against armies like Tyranids, as they can come in behind the wave of monsters, making them divide forces)

Dreadclaw using infantry (this entails chosen, chaos marines, berzerkers and whatnot. only to be used if your group is ok with IA things (mine is) but these are the creme de la creme of deep strikers, with the drop pod rules, they can come down reliably where ever they are needed)

Daemon Princes (yes i deep strike my daemon prince. No i am not insane. These units are actually very effective deep strikers, as if they come down in conjunction with other units they can be very effective, drawing fire away from the other deep strikers, or if they survive they are almost always in assault range :) And mine is overly cheap (140 points) so i love them :D)

Infantry Sized HQs (Typhus, Abaddon, Termy Lords and Sorcs, and Winged Lords and Sorcs. I strongly recommend wings here, as it gived mobility once landed (however you cant use icons, but i find with my 130 point lord its worth it). Lash is also a very useful tool in this sort of army, as it can open up holes in the enemy line to Deep Strike into :))

Ground Mounted
Chaos Space Marines (well here we have them, our basic boys (for this section I am also talking about Cult Troops) they are almost essential, as they give us reliable infantry, who can be trusted to get icons to places. Especially with rhino's)

Chosen (well these are amazing in this type of army! Taking icons to wherever they are needed most, not much to say on them really, its fairly simple. Just make sure they survive. Rabbits chosen squad is pretty good, i recommend it: 10 Chosen, 2 Melta Guns, Power Fist, Khorne)

Raptors (yes these can be used on the ground as well, and theyre also quite good at it. The reason i like them on the ground is because they can get a 12" move on turn one to bring an icon to bear (and theyre more reliable with that 12" than a rhino) so i would usually use mine on foot. Unless i have more than one squad)

HQ's (including Daemon Princes. Well what can i say i imagine an HQ can go either or in this army. On foot just use them as normal to be honest. However give them Icons, so that in some eituations they can detatch from a squad to get icons where needed. However in this regard i strongly recommend wings. Same rules apply here with Lash of Submission)

Anyone else got anything else to add? I feel this is pretty complete :)
 

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what about defilers? and dreadnoughts?
I'd really use dreads in situations like this...

you do want some tanks, so if you can spare the points, a landraider does a good job:)
 

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Woof! Woof! Bark! Bark!!!
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Anyone else got anything else to add? I feel this is pretty complete :)

Um, you seem to have comptely forgotten Daemons.... Remember they can assault the turn they are summoned...

Plus the new summoning rules give incredible control as to when and where they will appear. This cannot be understated.

Massive amounts of fun can be had with lesser Daemons. My favorite trick is summoning them to an icon in a rhino and doing a 'drive-by', whereas the daemons tie up the squad that was trying to intercept the rhino, and the rhino keeps moving, with little to worry about. As to hellstriking? Simple - have a horde of 20 of these guys pop out within assault distance of an enemy unit or line and watch your enemy crumble. It used to be called Daemonbombing. It still works.

The Greater Daemon is the greatest bargain of the codex. It should be much more expensive for it's stat-line, and has the added effect of being such a big, destructive target that the opposing army MUST deal with it -- if they don't, it will just tear through whatever it gets in contact with. A great unit that will always screw up the plans of your enemy. A one-model hellstrike, so to speak.
 

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The other Kind of Fluff
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Ah, yes, the greater daemon. How could I forget? Point for point, he's the best deal in the codex and certainly a solid asset to a Hellstrike army.

SIDE: Several posts have been somewhat relaxed on capitalizing the beginning of sentences. This is a friendly reminder that the standard of good grammar is something this forum tries to keep in mind :happy:
 

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Nox
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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Ah Daemons! How could i forget! *feels stupid*

Well then almost certainly they should be used. Not so much in my night lords (unless its furies). When i have time i will add sections on the Daemons, i dont at the moment however :(
 

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Chilli Fueled Heretic
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This Hellstriking lark seems like a good idea for the more sneaky Chaos players. If I were to approach the table with such a tactic in mind I would load out on squads of two oblits (two is the greatest number as they have to be all dead to be under half strength!) and units of Combi Terminators. Greater Daemons and Summoned Daemons would also suplement this list.

For ground assulating units Id suggest Rhino borne squads of at least 10. The large footprint of the rhino extends the6 inch DS safe zone with which to 'plonk' your DSing units.
I personnaly would not DS 'jump pack' troops, its very risky and they arent as effective shooting units as the normal 'teleport' troops.

Dan
 

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Nox
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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
For ground assulating units Id suggest Rhino borne squads of at least 10. The large footprint of the rhino extends the6 inch DS safe zone with which to 'plonk' your DSing units.
I personnaly would not DS 'jump pack' troops, its very risky and they arent as effective shooting units as the normal 'teleport' troops.

Dan
While this is true, i think Raptors are great icon carries as well. And chosen!

Also, Raptors can be very valuable when Deep Struck, if its behind enemy lines. This makes it not so effective against armies like Imperial Guard, however against Tyranids, Orks or even some Tau armies it is invaluable :)

Thats my opinion however

The main problem is the Deep Striking units are overly expensive, Raptors arent cheap, neither are Obliterators. Whats a chaos player to do!?

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Well deepstrike in smaller points is best reserved for the more powerful units like oblits and termies.

In smaller points games you will probably be limited to a single squad of raps, oblits and termies since your core units will eat up alot of points.

The demon prince can also be a bane if brought in smaller point games since his deep striking cant really be countered if he lands behind cover. I would say take him no matter the point cost.

we should also take examples from other deep striking armies.

deathwing: Ive rarely seen a low point deathwing army perform well. If you have to go low numbers make sure you equip them to do the most damage, IE assault cannons out the ass.

demon hunters: while they dont perform well in small points games they can take along a crapload of guardsmen as meat shields. they allow the enemy to engage themselves on the guardsmen while a squad of grey knights and termies wait to deep strike from the rear.

what we learn from deathwing is its not so much the quantity of units being deep struck as the quality is more important.

what we learn from demon hunters is that for any deep striking army to fully work, it requires a strong enough core to stand up to at least a few rounds of shooting and still be able to take objectives
 
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