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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
My friend is planning on fielding two Ancient Stegadons with Engines of the Gods. I have a hard enough time killing one of them as soon as the ward save goes up, but I'm not sure if I can cope with two of them because even if he switches to burning alignment on one of them he still has the ward save. Since it's a 1750 point army it's not going to be feasible to just avoid them both because they're both huge point sinks. Are there any tips for bringing them down?
 

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We have discussed this before, one suggestion which I think is a good one is use a noble on a Barded steed (or Eagle) with a star lance and Talisman of Loec. Charge it and Challenge then use the talisman and target the priest 3 attacks, should net you the 2 wounds needed to kill the priest. Unfortunately your noble will probably die as a result, on the plus side if you aren't killed by the stegadon you will flee and there is a 75% chance that you will escape. The next best thing is to shoot at them with RBT's, I would use single bolts and hope I don't hit the crew and pick off the mage or steagadon.
 

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This is an excellent idea but just ensure that it is with a unit of greater than 10 and challenge, you have to win combat otherwise you lose on outnumbering and then auto break due to fear. A drawback of this is that though it ties up the stegadon it can still use the engine for burning alignment which will kill your unit eventually.
 

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Single bolts. Absolutely use single-bolts, preferably with Curse of Arrow Attraction. That should pick off either the Stegadon or the priest.
Failing that, the Eagle-noble works well. As do Star Dragons if you can get him. The flame template will actually hit whatever it covers, so you can lay it over the howdah and scorch everyone inside.

If he wants to be a jerk, be a jerk back and hire some DoW "Gonzo's Galloper Guns". A single regiment of these comes as a pair, for a single rare choice. They have a higher strength than a BT, do the same D3 wounds, and don't roll to hit (although you need to be good at guessing ranges) and may misfire. Otherwise, they're golden.

Lore of Beasts is great, offering Beast Cowers as well as Hunter's Spear to throw his way. The 'Conflagration of Doom' from Lore of Fire, and the 'Flames of the Phoenix' from High Magic both hit every model in the unit, allowing you to quickly strip the Howdah and the miserable little cretin of a priest hiding inside.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
I like the idea of Lore of the Beasts. It was something I was considering but I wasn't sure I wanted to give up Shield of Sapphery/Courage of Aenarion/Vaul's Unmaking, but since I don't have another bolt thrower the Hunter's Spear kinda seals the deal.

Allonairre: I'll definitely consider it in higher point battles, but in these first low-point battles I don't want to tie up my character option when I could be fielding a Battle Standard Bearer instead.

Captain Sarathai: I love your suggestions and it's just one of those things that makes me wish I had enough money to field a really flexible army. When I come into more money I definitely want to look at some of those.

Thanks for the suggestions guys. I'm actually quite hopeful that the next battle will go well.
 

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This is an excellent idea but just ensure that it is with a unit of greater than 10 and challenge, you have to win combat otherwise you lose on outnumbering and then auto break due to fear. A drawback of this is that though it ties up the stegadon it can still use the engine for burning alignment which will kill your unit eventually.
Yeah I was thinking about that, not against lizardmen but against my friends stupidly cheap DoomWheel. The way I'd try to pull off the forliaths robe is have my mage with archers on a hill - the turn before he charges in I'd move the archers away probly say something like 'at least I can buy 1 more turn of shooting by sacrificing my mage' or 'YOU SHALL NOT PASS' (in a Gandalf tone) enticing him to get my mage - when he charges I'd Pray that I pass my fear test or this plan goes down the toilet - when he charges I tell him about my cheater robe, he's got +1 for outnumber, but i've got +1 for 'High Ground' effectively making it a draw, right?

I'm still noob though and don't know the rules so well so I could be missing something here.
 

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The only catch is that High Ground only lasts for that first turn. After that, you're outnumbered by fear/terror. Good idea, though.
 

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The catch is that if he's hitting archers on a hill with a doomwheel, everything in front of the hill is probably already dead...

Not having cash can really hurt, so I'll try to run off some other nastiness that you can use:

That Starlance noble doesn't have to be on an Eagle. It just helps. So if you've got a noble or appropriate mounted mini, you could use that.

For spells, usefull castings would include:
first spell, lore of Metal- targets an individual model and deals a high strength hit based on it's armor save, while canceling any armor save it would usually get. Pick out the Priest and fry him, pretty sure the Howdah gives him a 2+ save. It doesn't stop the Stegadon, but it should stop the Engine. Only deals a single wound though if I recall, so you'll be casting it twice.

last spell, lore of Metal- same thing as the first, except it targets the unit. This will effectively strip the Howdah of skinks, and leave the priest with a single wound.

Flames of the Phoenix/Conflagration of Doom - see my initial post

Hunter's Spear from Lore of Beasts - hits like another RBT

Beast Cowers from Lore of Beasts - no moving, no attacking in CC from the Stegadon. Doesn't affect riders though.

Steal Soul from Lore of Death - character sniper. Deals a wound, no armor saves allowed, if I remember correctly.

Pit of Shades from Lore of Shadow - if successfully cast, it forces the model to pass an initiative test... stegadon is pretty much doomed, as are most lizardmen.

Magic is hard to use against the Lizardmen because they are extremely good at it, and he's running a pair of Lvl3's if he's using the EotG. That gives him 6 dispell dice in his own phase. We can manage to get PDs out. Running Lvl2s will give us dice. Gem of Sunfire is good for a handy casting of Conflagration. Powerstones always help too. Characters can tote bound spells when needed.

I know you're holding on to the BSB, but what are you using him for, in particular. Sometimes, if the enemy is running such huge points-sinks, you can likewise pull your army together around defeating those targets. The BSB may be helpful against the rank-and-file Lizards he is using, but there will be far fewer of those, unless he runs a bunch of skinks. If he does that, they you want as many archers as you can pack into a list...
 

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You could put him in a unit with the magic cloak and challenge the stegadon, he has to accept and you can let the unit outnumber and kill skink crew to win the combat. He's stubborn so it doesn't matter how much you win by.

Just make sure to kill the priest fast though, or else he will burn you



Also you can just out cheese him and take Tyrion or Teclis. They'll deal with those point sinks.
 

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I think that Sarathai has hit on a very valid point, the list that your opponent is using is a bit of a one trick pony, 2 Engines and the rest doesn't matter. If you beat this list once or twice then your opponent may (I hope) go back to playing a more balanced list.

Try the Star Lance noble, mage and a BSB (or 2nd mage) (trouble with this is the star lance is your general but anyway) The first mage is purely for defense, without an extremely magic heavy build you won't slip much past his 6 dispel dice. You would take the 2nd if you wanted to get spells through after the first engine went down.

My list would be
Noble with Starlance and Talisman of Loec
Mounted on Eagle

Mage L2 Seer Staff and Scroll (beasts Hunters spear + Beast Cowers)

Mage Ring of Fury and Silver Wand

2 units of 10 Archers

5 Dragon Princes Full Command
Banner of Sorcery
Skein Sliver

2 Repeater Bolt Throwers

Fill out the rest with whatever you want. I would want the first turn hence skeinsliver maybe include a few shadow warrior units to minimise placings, large unit of Phoenix Gaurd to auto break the small Saurus Warrior units, If I can get a round of shooting / magic before he turns on the bubble then he is in serious trouble.

Basic Tactics would be,
Turn 1 Eagle rider gets into a position to charge stegadon 1, hopefully most magically defensive skink. Magic, Beast Cowers stegadon 1 (3 dice), Hunter's Spear at stegadon 2 (3 dice), Drain magic or curse of arrow attraction from other mage, Ring of Fury on skink unit or Terradons. Shoot Archers at skinks or Terradons, Bolt Throwers at Stegadon 2.
Turn 2 Noble charges Stegadon 1, challenge, uses talisman and targets priest with all attacks, Magic Phase, repeat from previous phase same shooting phase as well.
Turn 3 both Steg's without their mages or dead, you should win now.

The key to your magic phase is going to be doing maximum damage to him as often as possible, make him use dice and scrolls as early as possible.

This won't actually play out like this but you get the general idea.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
I only have Silver Helms, so I tend to put the Battle Standard Bearer with them. I give him the banner of battle and use to to chase off side units or flank-and-break combat. The last time I used him I managed to hit the Stegadon right in the side, but the player informed me that he was immune to psychology and so wouldn't break...

It wasn't until several days later that I actually looked the rule up. He had a +7 to his roll, too. :(

Also, maybe I'm just lucky, but the only problem I have with him in the magic phase is the stupid Engine effects. And that's with one wizard. Fielding two might work.

Thanks for all the advice guys. Next time I see that hulking monstrosity I'm gonna grill him.
 

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2 EOTG (as we lizardmen call them) in a game under 2k points is total cheese. Bring 4 RBTs. He deserves it.

Plus they are only movement 6, hit them with heavy cavalry in the flank, deny them their impact hits and they're toast. They are so expensive that even if it takes 2 units of 6 dragon princes you still have spent less points than he did to take it out.
 

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Just a note on that, the FAQ clarified that Hunter's Spear spell does NOT do D3 wounds like a RBT :( only 1 wound. still not bad to wound a steggie.
Kind a strange.. The spell says that it works like a single bolt from a bolt thrower. And don't a single hit from a bolt thrower cause D3 wounds?!:S
 

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2 EOTG (as we lizardmen call them) in a game under 2k points is total cheese. Bring 4 RBTs. He deserves it.

Plus they are only movement 6, hit them with heavy cavalry in the flank, deny them their impact hits and they're toast. They are so expensive that even if it takes 2 units of 6 dragon princes you still have spent less points than he did to take it out.
2 units of 6 dragon prins in 1750 points is a lot. They cost 30 points a piece and their commandgroup is 50 points as well;) that's 460 points youre talking about But maybe it's a solution.
 

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2 units of 6 dragon prins in 1750 points is a lot. They cost 30 points a piece and their commandgroup is 50 points as well;) that's 460 points youre talking about But maybe it's a solution.
You don't have to bring command. Two units of 6 Dragon Prices will still cost less than one of those engines, and probably spell the death of both of them.
 

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at 1750 points the most you are going to have is a lv 2 wizard so you can't count on lore of Beasts giving you either the BEAST COWERS or that bolthrower like spell they have that would either do damage and ignore the Steggies armor save.

So at that point level, the RBT's are the only sure thing that would drop a Steggie or Ancient Steggie.

The danger is not only the ward save of +5 from the EOTG, but also that Lore of Heavens has a spell that will up it to +4 ward which is also a 1-in-6 chance that they get it as well.
 

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I fiddled around a bit and in the end I was almost wondering why you're so scared about them, because aside from the impact hits it's actually only the EotG that can really hurt you; the Ancient Stegadon has just 3 WS3 S6 attacks. So what about 20 Spearmen with full command led by a noble with heavy armor and a great weapon?

Let's first compare the costs of the above mentioned High Elf forces with a Lvl 1 Skink Priest with an Ancient Stegaon: They are nearly 20% cheaper.

Now try let's see what happens when the Lizards attack: The Stegadon will inflict D6+1 S6 impact hits. That's an average of 9/2 hits which will wound on 2+. 9/2 * 5/6 = 15/4 ~ 4 wounds with no armor save. This will leave the Noble and 7 (?) Spearmen to fight back. Unless I misunderstood the rules for the Stegadon they're all allowed to attack the Priest. The Noble will hit on 3+ (WS 6 vs. WS 2) and wound on 2+ (S 6 vs . T 2). This should result in 3 * 2/3 * 5/6 = 5/3 wounds. The Priest will save on 5+ (S 6 vs. Armor Save 2+). So we can expect 5/3 * 2/3 = 10/9 ~ 1 wound. The Spearmen will hit on 3+ (WS 4 vs WS 2) and wound on 3+ (S 3 vs T 2). So 7 Spearmen with champion will inflict an average of 8 * 2/3 * 2/3 = 32/9 wounds. Unfortunately they'll be saved on 2+, so only 32/9 * 1/6 = 16/27 will get through.

What does that mean in the end? With a bit of luck the Priest can reasonably be killed (and thereby the EotG be rendered useless) in one turn even without using any magical items. The static combat resolution of the spearmen (3 ranks, standard and outnumbering) will almost ensure victory in this turn. And in any subsequent turn (without impact) the Lizards don't stand a chance to overcome the static combat resolution .
 
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