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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Disclaimer: I am relatively new to wh fantasy, but...

At 1k pts it seems the high elves are fairly dominant (at least against Chaos, Ogres, and Lizards.)

It seems ranged weaponry is fairly potent in a disproportionately good way for me AND once someone does manage to bring some assault troops close to my lines, I have ample hitting power (at least for one round) with sword masters and dragon princes.

Essentially, high elves have great ranged options at low point values, have great options to bring in multiple specials and hit very hard at least for the first half of combat. My opponents are not poor optimizers as I rarely dominated in wh40k with my space marines as I have with the high elves.

So... do others share my opinion? And, it does not seem like the high elf advantage will scale to higher point games or at least the balance ought to tilt more evenly towards the assault heavy, but shooty light opponents I have in my circle of friends. I also imagine that other shooty heavy army, particularly the wood elves, would cause me great pain at 1k pts.

Thoughts?
 

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Benevolent Dictator
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Hmm. It'd help if you explained what type of list the enemy is taking. The three armies that you have mentioned can be extremely resistant to High Elves in ANY SIZED game.

Those are just basic troops choices, we won't get into what they can take as special and hero, and we won't talk about the ability of LMs and OKs to field massive amounts of 'weak' models.

I'd say that in 1K the game becomes far more tactical at all stages, since you don't have room to take all the "what-if" units. Certainly we have an advantage by getting in more special units (which is broken in that it's disproportionate, should be like "1 extra for every 1,000pts"). But our shooting is not particularly good, unless you mean the RBTs. Our troops are outnumbered -especially in low points- and our core troops are never much of a backbone.

I'd like to see the lists involved because our HE can be dealt with very easily at 1k. It's a good question though, it seems most of the games we've been playing are 2K+ and people are still complaining about "brokeness".
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Army lists

Ogres:
  • 2 units of bulls with 3 models each
  • 2 units of leadbelchers with 2 models each
  • 1 unit of ~24 gnoblars
  • 1 unit of 4 iron guts
  • 1 gorger?? The hero that can come on from any table edge? Can't remember his name
  • 1 hero, 4 wounds 5+ ward save
I have only played the lizards and chaos once. The chaos was made up of hounds, a unit of warriors, a unit of maurauders, chaos knights, and a demon of some sort optimized for casting. The lizards played two units of skinks, some sort of heavy cav, some sort of ogre-like unit that worked in tandem with skinks, and their stock troop unit of infantry.

I don't take two repeating bolter throwers, just one and a great eagle. My noble takes the reaver bow and I take a unit of 10 archers. With the eagle march blocking and optimally my archers on a hill, I get off several good rounds of ranged fire from the noble, RBT, and the archers. In general, one or more of the approaching units flees because of panic and when something does get close, they cannot withstand charging DPs or flanking SMs. And, even when they do clear out the DPs or SMs, they are often left sitting in the open waiting for a full round of ranged fire.

Again, I am fairly new so I do not know the reasons for it, but in walking through the games, tactics, and so on with my friends post-game, we all generally feel that my ranged prowess and initial combat prowess, reasonable mobility, and number of special choices, make for a tough challenge for close-combat oriented low point games. (Excluding the lizards who seemed to have more tactical options, at least way more than ogres.)
 

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Interesting...my guess would be that you are extremely lucky with dice

it seems that you're playing against mostly T4 and I think its amazing that you're able to get a good round of shooting off at all...in my experience S3 bows don't do all that much against high toughness

I'm just going to assume that the majority of your shooting kills come from the RBT and your Noble. If you're really concerned about having an overpowered shooting phase, you could drop the reaver bow and make your noble more CC oriented
 

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Hi Gamey and 1st off welcome to LO.

By looking at the list that you have put up for the ogres i must say that i'm surprised that you had such great success in the shooting phase. I must say that normally against T4 or better opponents I usually drop my regular Archers out of my list as i find that S3 really doesn't cut it against them and I'll try and use the points on another RBT or maybe even a small unit of Shadow warriors.

I do think that the hunter noble does excel in low points games especially if you are extra mean and mount him on a Eagle with the enchanted shield and GW.

I don't however think that we are broken as every army can field something to get a win at any points level with some tactical awareness and a slice of luck. I think that 'broken' is banded around too much and i've expressed this opinion before and i will do it again. It's our job as players to find a way to beat the armies our opponents are putting out, (even those annoying gunlines). In this case your opponents need to look at their lists again and find a way to beat your all conquering HE.

Until then I suggest you talk very kindly to those lucky dice of yours and store them away in a very safe place because I've found them to be very fickle things who will turn on you at the worst possible time :p
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Thanks

Thanks for the welcome.

I don't think the dice are lucky. I do think that the RBT and the Noble/Reaver are more effective with the noble doing 2 to 3 wounds a round with reasonable probability and the RBT hitting 66% of the time on 6 shots and wounding 50% after that. Between the two of them, going after one unit, I can almost always take out one ogre and sometimes two. The archers are more pesky and fickle in that if I am on a hill I can get 66% of 10 arrows hitting and then really see my wound count fall low because of the T4 v s3 issues. However, 1 or 2 wounds a round from archers helps the Noble and RBT continue to thin the herd more effectively.

I am always torn between dropping the eagle and archers and adding another RBT, but think the tacttical utility of the eagle gives the eagle/archer combo a slight edge. Though I do plan to test my hypothesis during the next game or two.


Thanks Again.
 

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Rushing Jaws
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Thanks for the welcome.

I don't think the dice are lucky. I do think that the RBT and the Noble/Reaver are more effective with the noble doing 2 to 3 wounds a round with reasonable probability and the RBT hitting 66% of the time on 6 shots and wounding 50% after that. Between the two of them, going after one unit, I can almost always take out one ogre and sometimes two. The archers are more pesky and fickle in that if I am on a hill I can get 66% of 10 arrows hitting and then really see my wound count fall low because of the T4 v s3 issues. However, 1 or 2 wounds a round from archers helps the Noble and RBT continue to thin the herd more effectively.

I am always torn between dropping the eagle and archers and adding another RBT, but think the tacttical utility of the eagle gives the eagle/archer combo a slight edge. Though I do plan to test my hypothesis during the next game or two.


Thanks Again.
You have to remember, though, that the RBT and Archers only hit on a 3+ at close range (unless ogres are large targets?). Admittedly for the bolt thrower close range is still quite a decent range, but modifiers can still stack up.
 

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Herman1004
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They are absolutely not broken.

There are in fact a number of ways to take HE down, even at low points battles.

Ogres have bull charge which goes before ASF.
Chaos have chariots at core i think.
Lizardmen have skinks in large numbers and stegadon for impact hits.

All armies have 4+T and often great AS.

IMO you have been quite lucky with your dice. And if not, your opponents are really bad at exploiting weaknesses. Give a tip on how to beat you. This will make you a popular player as well as ensuring most of the battles are fun to play.

Regards.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
More on lucky dice

I have yet to see an ogre get off an impact hit (in my rather short career.) While it does nullify my ASF, it seems tactically difficult to actually execute while trying to avoid being a pincushion for archers/RBT/reaver and charges from DPs. Or even rather more simply, by me walking forward when I know that he can catch me. I am sure there are situations where he can catch me and have more than one unit to bring to bear, but that has not happened yet. I perused some forums for Ogre players and some of them seemed to agree. Again, I am a bit of newb. My ogre-playing friend is the most game optimized person whom I have ever met, so I don't think he is blundering his chances.

Chariots I am not sure about. They seem like they would more frequently get off the impact hits and have better mobility so that would go badly for my paper thin elves.

The skinks were in fact very annoying and did do a lot of damage to me. Perhaps if he had more of those, the game would have been more close.

As for lucky dice, the probability of wounds per round for 10 archers on a hill shooting without penalty is 2.22 (assuming my math is correct on 10 * .666 * .333) Some of his Ogres don't get armor save some do. In practice, I think I was getting about 1 wound per round from the archers. They were more there to harrass and distract and help wear down the unit that the reaver and RBT were focussing upon.

Regards
Gamey
 

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I dont think the HE are broken at 1K any more than the Dwarfs or Empire are at this level. Shooting is however more effective in smaller battles because its much easier to cause painc tests on the smaller units people take.
 

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Master of the Crab Women
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It seems ranged weaponry is fairly potent in a disproportionately good way for me AND once someone does manage to bring some assault troops close to my lines, I have ample hitting power (at least for one round) with sword masters and dragon princes.
Ranged weaponry in a High Elf army consists of bolt throwers and S3 longbows. Apart from the range advantage, there's no problem here.

Swordmasters are extremely vulnerable to shooting and very expensive (which becomes more apparent at this points level).

Dragon Princes are S3 off the charge and like all cavalry units, lack any significant static combat res. If you don't break on the charge, you'll have big problems. The cost issue also applies.

Essentially, high elves have great ranged options at low point values, have great options to bring in multiple specials and hit very hard at least for the first half of combat.
Again, cost and fragility is the key here. They can kick out a tremendous amount of damage but they can't take much at all.
 

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Lizardmen

How much scenery do you play with because that can effect you a lot when you have lots of archers.

With lizardmen the best tactic (i think ) is to get lots of skinks and get some of them to scout, with the generally low armour save of your archers and swordmasters (i think it is 5+) they can usually do a bit of damage.

Also tell him/her to use the kroxigors and skinks together so they don't get shot up so much on their way into CC and then unleash them on the archers and RBT.

Thats my tactic and it works quiet well against HE.;Y
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Agree on the lizard tactics

I agree the terrain is a big deal for scouts skinks and that they are difficult to deal with since the Elves are so soft and skirmershers in cover make the ranged weaponry that much less effective.

So... I do agree that Lizards have some tactical options even at lower point values that make things more difficult for the HE. Chaos had fewer tactical options and I still contend, the Ogres have the least of all.
 
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