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Gladewalker
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hello. I haven't been playing fantasy long, but I've played 40k for 5 years. While I don't think that High Elves are impossible to beat, they are ridiculously good. They have large advantages in pretty much every aspect (speed, strike first, strong infantry, magic, items, unit choices, force organization, armor [on cavalry]). It seems to me like the designers went a little overboard putting 'strengths' in this rulebook without balancing it with weaknesses. Most people point to point costs as a disadvantage, but I am not convinced. The power verse price ratio is incredible. Spearmen that strike first with 3 fighting ranks for less than 10pts. Come on.

I just wanted to vent and see if others felt the same about this matter.
 

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I suck... Maiden neck...
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I waited till I was good and tired to reply to any such post. I really don't wanna rant, or start a flame war. I will even be brief!

I feel we often get these questions when a new army is released. NO I as a starting point, I do not agree with this. I think they are fairly balanced and it is just a matter of people adjusting their tactic and get to know the new armybook. I think they have made some serious upgrades, but heck HE needed it worse than most other (yea yea, we still need Chaos Dwarfs)! I play against them very often, and I think it has some fundamental tactical goddy-packs like ASF. Maybe they could have upgraded the HE in a better way, but I don't think that they did a bad job (it really is a fantastic armybook). I hope more people will realize that GW makes pretty balanced armies.

I understand that some armies have a hard time, but then again so does every army have against some opponents...

-Hope I was okay, even though writing with my eyes closed...
 

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I'd have to agree with Cebwj, and its not even because I play HE 0:. They have plenty of weaknesses that can be exploited. You just have to realize that some people will have a hard time adjusting their tactics to compensate for ASF and the like.

HE are still the low armored, weak (Strength and toughness), low model army that they always were. Now you don't even have to worry about full cavalry armies anymore.

So again, no I don't agree. I think that for the most part GW did a good job of making the HE more viable without full cavalry, without making them overpowered.
 

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Gladewalker
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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
I'm not set in my opinion against HE since I'm a new player. I just don't see that they have any major exploitable weaknesses. It is merely their all-rounded nature that makes them ridiculous. I've played two 750pt games against them; they were fun and extremely tactical but it felt like I was fighting an uphill battle from the start (and not due to army comp).

People talk about them having bad armor, but they have access to decent armor (Lt, Hvy, shield, plus mount, barding for cav). They aren't all that expensive , points-wise either.

Not that I'm looking at this purely from a WE perspective (they are my 1st fantasy army), but WE are also a small, fast, and elite army. However, they seem completely outclassed, even heroes, except for the major difference in mobility (fast cav, skirmishers). I don't think it's right for a charging, I9 alter kindred to strike after someone with a great weapon. It makes sense to hit before a charging orc or even a human hero but not a crazy fast elf. Can you help me out by enlightening me as to how its fair and balanced for a HE mage to cast irresistably or remove other players' magic items? Those make sense fluffwise, but they just seem a little extreme. Maybe this is all my inexperience talking.

I read the GW tacticas about fighting against HE's. It suggests that WE use a one use item (HoD arrow) and wardancers (who would get owned by ASF). These are not promising suggestions. What do you suggest?
 

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Senior Member
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they are hard to use, its not a walk in the park. high elves still run away, are still weak and their magic isn't as good as its made out to be, they're also expensive point wise i'd say. i've been using my high elves alot recenetly and its becoming frustrating, the smallest mistake and everything seems to fall apart, then again swordmasters are amazing and they never seem to let me down, repeater bolt throwers i love them and i like spearmen too.
 

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I suck... Maiden neck...
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I'm not set in my opinion against HE since I'm a new player. I just don't see that they have any major exploitable weaknesses. It is merely their all-rounded nature that makes them ridiculous. I've played two 750pt games against them; they were fun and extremely tactical but it felt like I was fighting an uphill battle from the start (and not due to army comp).
The system is meant to be balanced about 2000 points, but WE are pretty good in small games. I think you need to review your armylist (post it in the WE armylist subforum and get some VS HE response)

People talk about them having bad armor, but they have access to decent armor (Lt, Hvy, shield, plus mount, barding for cav). They aren't all that expensive , points-wise either.
From a WE persepctive, no they have strong armour, but when you look a bit wider it isn't so. Sure the Swordmasters have heavy armour, but compared to a good ol' 3+ save for BASIC dwarf infantry (who cost less). Dragonprinces are good, but what are they to do against a cannon? a spell without armour save (they are only T3).

Not that I'm looking at this purely from a WE perspective (they are my 1st fantasy army), but WE are also a small, fast, and elite army. However, they seem completely outclassed, even heroes, except for the major difference in mobility (fast cav, skirmishers). I don't think it's right for a charging, I9 alter kindred to strike after someone with a great weapon. It makes sense to hit before a charging orc or even a human hero but not a crazy fast elf. Can you help me out by enlightening me as to how its fair and balanced for a HE mage to cast irresistably or remove other players' magic items? Those make sense fluffwise, but they just seem a little extreme. Maybe this is all my inexperience talking.
I think the ASF might have been a bad way to balance the HE (at least for the whole army), I think it is a bit off the fluff, but with balance it turned out fairly okay (even though it is VERY good against some armies (like mostly mobile armies) and not doing anything against foes like zombies.
About the refering to removing magic items, irresistably: You can cast with irresistable force too. Everyone (well except non-magic armies and TK) can! And as for the remove magic item, it isn't new, and you can dispel it. Personally I think that is a crap magic, it doesn't win games or anything, and if you have been beaten because he was lucky and destroyed a magic item it is YOUR tactics that needs to be adjusted. not the HE

I read the GW tacticas about fighting against HE's. It suggests that WE use a one use item (HoD arrow) and wardancers (who would get owned by ASF). These are not promising suggestions. What do you suggest?
HoD arrow is a good thing! Otherwise I would recommend using things that don't die when the HE hit em. Like treekin and the likes. Otherwise you can always just shoot him to pieces!
As I have mentioned several times (and I hope you take no offence) it is YOU who is in need of adjusting, not the HE. Sure ASF army-wide might be a bit over the top against some foes, but they are not unfair or broken.

Post a list in the WE armylist subforum, and mention what the WE player noramlly brings... We'll take him down in no time then!
 

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Bearded Ninja
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General rule of thumb - people don't like getting pulled out of their comfort zone.

ASF forces people to do that. The simple solution is to think about it. work out new tactics, exploit their weaknesses, avoid their strengths.

Lets look at wood elves. Wood elves have A: powerful missile fire B: fast and hard hitting combat units and C: forest spirits.

The high elves have poor armour on their infantry (strongest part of the army in many ways) so pounding them with S4 bow fire just wreaks them.

the high elf units with good armour are the cavalry, who are outpaced by their wood elf counter parts (wild riders). Charge them first and kick some arse ;)

Third thing is that the only things that high elves have that can even consider taking on treemen head on are dragons. Not too hard to deal with in the long run.


:C
 

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Rushing Jaws
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Arklite said:
The high elves have poor armour on their infantry (strongest part of the army in many ways) so pounding them with S4 bow fire just wreaks them.
This is very true. Rhoaran, you mention that HE have access to good armour, but if you look at the infantry none of them have a total save greater than 5+, which is fairly poor for such expensive troops. The cavlary do have good armour, but it's still less than others such as Empire Knights who have access to full plate.

the high elf units with good armour are the cavalry, who are outpaced by their wood elf counter parts (wild riders). Charge them first and kick some arse ;)
Just before someone points out that charging them is pointless because of ASF, if you charge them then yes, they will strike first but without any lance bonuses, while you will get any spear/lance bonuses. You'll only have to deal with a few S3 attacks before hitting them back.
 

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I think the Always strike first thing is annoying. Especially as I play lizardmen and to spend XX points on Sword of the Hornet just to be wasted when you play a HE army (im talking Tournament play here) its annoying. Apart from that though the HE always strike first against lizzies anyway (go Initiative 1 woo!). Im annoyed about the ASF even when charged, thats just stupid and turns it into a game of 40k where you can just move your guys towards the enemy as fast as possible as it doesnt matter if you get charged.

They did need a redo but ASF is just a little too OTT, I mean elves have great I anyway so why bother?

Oh and having a dragon at 1000 points takes the biscuit too.

No points costs of items in future please - GN
 

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Gladewalker
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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
As I have mentioned several times (and I hope you take no offence) it is YOU who is in need of adjusting, not the HE. Sure ASF army-wide might be a bit over the top against some foes, but they are not unfair or broken.

Post a list in the WE armylist subforum, and mention what the WE player noramlly brings... We'll take him down in no time then!
My beef with HE has little to do with my ingame experience with them. My games have been fun, back-and-forth games. I played another two against HE last night (one draw and one game where he had an illegal list.

I'm not complaining because of getting beat by ASF or losing a magic item. I'm just upset that they are too powerful for no good reason.
 

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Master of the Crab Women
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My beef with HE has little to do with my ingame experience with them. My games have been fun, back-and-forth games. I played another two against HE last night (one draw and one game where he had an illegal list.

I'm not complaining because of getting beat by ASF or losing a magic item. I'm just upset that they are too powerful for no good reason.
You've built them up too much. They are nowhere near as powerful as you say.

As has been said before, T3 and a 5+ save isn't immensely tough. The whole army is T3!

As WE should should more than enough shooting to deal with the limited body count of the HE.

Instead of whining, you could be formulating a plan to beat them.
 

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I suck... Maiden neck...
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My beef with HE has little to do with my ingame experience with them. My games have been fun, back-and-forth games. I played another two against HE last night (one draw and one game where he had an illegal list.

I'm not complaining because of getting beat by ASF or losing a magic item. I'm just upset that they are too powerful for no good reason.
I am getting really tired of you coming back to this thread saying the same agian and again. you have no arguments and it might be time to see the light. A lot of good men (maybe some women) have posted in this thread and nobody is having the same selfrightousness about the whole 'High Elves are hard to beat'-deal. Just formulate a plan, and if you really think it is so hard, find a group to share experiences with. I am sure that some have a very hard time (including myself) adjusting to the new HE armybook, but it doesn't warrent crying "too overpowerd" just because you can't or won't do enough to figure out how to adjust!

I agree with swntzu. Start making a plan, read their book and take notes on weakness and strength. Start a thread regarding tactics VS HE.
 

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Gladewalker
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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Thank you for your responses. I will retire to quiet anonymity.
 

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Aye i agree with you all on this matter. New HE are not unbeatable but they do take some time to adjusting tactics to defeat them. it took me three games to adjust my tactics with my O&G which consisted primarily of non fanatic gobbos(i know). as Arklite said, exploit their weakness and pound them where it hurts.

dont forget that their infatry are potential pincushions for your archers.
 

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I suck... Maiden neck...
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Thank you for your responses. I will retire to quiet anonymity.
That is exactly what I am angry about you doing. If you feel you have a problem with defeating an army then SPEAK UP, Just make it constructive instead of this. The whole point of me posting here was to get you to NOT just be quiet, but to accually DO something about your own problem.

You have been given some very good tactics here, and if they aren't enough (as said) find more information!
 

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People talk about them having bad armor, but they have access to decent armor (Lt, Hvy, shield, plus mount, barding for cav). They aren't all that expensive , points-wise either.
From a WE persepctive, no they have strong armour, but when you look a bit wider it isn't so. Sure the Swordmasters have heavy armour, but compared to a good ol' 3+ save for BASIC dwarf infantry (who cost less). Dragonprinces are good, but what are they to do against a cannon? a spell without armour save (they are only T3).


As a dwarf player I was intrigued by this good ol' 3+ you speak of. Did I miss a special rule that gives them this save? Please explain yourself.
 

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Rushing Jaws
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As a dwarf player I was intrigued by this good ol' 3+ you speak of. Did I miss a special rule that gives them this save? Please explain yourself.
I don't play dwarfs, but I assume the 3+ save comes from heavy armour (+2), shield (+1) and the +1 parry bonus for using hand weapon and shield in CC. Of course that is only in close combat against enemies to the front and if you're using the handweapon, but it's still a3+.
 

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I suck... Maiden neck...
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People talk about them having bad armor, but they have access to decent armor (Lt, Hvy, shield, plus mount, barding for cav). They aren't all that expensive , points-wise either.
From a WE persepctive, no they have strong armour, but when you look a bit wider it isn't so. Sure the Swordmasters have heavy armour, but compared to a good ol' 3+ save for BASIC dwarf infantry (who cost less). Dragonprinces are good, but what are they to do against a cannon? a spell without armour save (they are only T3).


As a dwarf player I was intrigued by this good ol' 3+ you speak of. Did I miss a special rule that gives them this save? Please explain yourself.
As already explained by now, it is the basic troopers CC save I am talking about, which is great! But do you really think it so important to voice that question here, without adding anything to the discussion? that is called off-topic, and now you made Ancalagon do it too in good faith (heck even me now, but that is just because I am evil). Instead you might have send me a PM, or even read the rulebook?
I noticed you are new, so please take some time to read the rules in the blue bar above the thread you are viewing, so that I won't have to give you anymore though-love.
 

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cebwj, stop flaming everyone, it's good for nothing.

Back to the original post I do think the new HE have been made a little OTT in some respects. An old claim was that spears were overpriced, which was somewhat fair (although I still believe people underestimate just how good fighting in 3 ranks is) so to give them ASF would balance this a little. But to drop their cost by 2pts as well? I think they're a little rondiculous as they are now.

Swordmasters are nasty as are white lions with their stubborn but they are expensive and can be shot up so I have no beef there.

The ability to still take 4 eagles in 2k points is very good as well, a little too good I would say. GE are probably my top unit in the HE arsenal as they are like a swiss army knife, they can just do so many things. March block, charge re-direction, screen, mage/warmachine hunting, all for a mere XXpts.

But having said all that I think since dwarfs and WE, all the later army book editions have seen the armies become a lot better, every time I read a new one I'm like "wow!" so I guess I shouldn't have expected the HE to be any different.

HE players used to moan about their army being underpowered, which is a shame for two reasons:

1) It wasn't true

2) GW have taken these claims to heart and come up with an army which I do believe is a little too good in some respects (although perfectly balanced in others)

But hey, that's just the way it goes, nothing much I can do about it so when I next come up against them I'll have to give them some of the ol' Slann Mage lovin' ;)
 

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I suck... Maiden neck...
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I never collected HE and I could see (or at least think) they were underpowered. I don't think the new armies are that much better to be honest. I can still wup some HE with my trusty VC armybook. I think the HE is alot better, and as I have said before, I think it's just because it's new and people seem to be bad at finding new tactics that they seem overpowered. It's almost like people just get tactics off the internet ;o

if only we had a forum to discuss how to come up with new tactics.;Y
 
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