[Menthalas]

I think I'm going to edit the Rending Claws section a bit in order to offer both points of view on the subject. I realize that my writing is a bit biased, and that's not entirely good, so I'll revise one or two options to give both sides of the story. Hopefully this will make everyone happy, or at least most people.

As someone said, objectivity would be nice, and you are right that you can't truly objective here. Choosing to present both sides is as close to it as can come, and it allows the reader to actually think through both sides with you. I don't mind the 'I believes', or whatnot, since you should have your own two-cents in there.

Beyond that though I thought it was a helpful article for its comprehensiveness.

 

[Bugs_n_Orks]

Rending Claws - There is a debate over theses. Technically, since rending claws are weapons that modify penetration rolls, a MC with rending claws loses its 'natural' 2d6 pen ability. That probably wasn't the intention. So it means you lose 2d6 pen all the time, for auto wound and 2d6 pen on a 6. Is the auto wound on a 6 to hit worth losing the always 2d6 pen? Perhaps. It is also cheaper than STs. It's not really a great, though, since against most models a S6 (with Toxin Sacs) will wound on a 2+ anyway. It gets added benefit against T5 or better models, but then the extra attacks that ST give would still be useful there too as additional chances to wound.

I do not see why there is any confusion about RC attacking vehicles. The example on pg.55 gives a wraithlord with powerfists as an example of somehting that would cause a MC to loose its extra d6 for armr pen. and says that any MC with a weapon that augments strength or works unusually would also loose the extra d6. On pg.46 are the general types of special CC attacks, those that would have any effect when attacking a vehicle are : Power fist, Thunder Hammer, Witchblade, and rending weapons. In fact the TH, WB, and rending rules specifically mention how they affect vehicles in an abnormal way. So if a monstrous creature has any of these weapons they loose their extra d6 according to the rules. I think this was completely intentional, otherwise a hive tyrant could potentially have an armor pen. of 30 and a fex 34. This doesn't mean you can't choose not to use rending claws, or other special CC weapons, when attacking vehicles, the wraithlord above could roll 10+d6 or 5+2d6. Sorry I just don't see why this is an issue, it's fairly clear in the rules.

 

[Rikimaru]

I do not see why there is any confusion about RC attacking vehicles. The example on pg.55 gives a wraithlord with powerfists as an example of somehting that would cause a MC to loose its extra d6 for armr pen. and says that any MC with a weapon that augments strength or works unusually would also loose the extra d6. On pg.46 are the general types of special CC attacks, those that would have any effect when attacking a vehicle are : Power fist, Thunder Hammer, Witchblade, and rending weapons. In fact the TH, WB, and rending rules specifically mention how they affect vehicles in an abnormal way. So if a monstrous creature has any of these weapons they loose their extra d6 according to the rules. I think this was completely intentional, otherwise a hive tyrant could potentially have an armor pen. of 30 and a fex 34. This doesn't mean you can't choose not to use rending claws, or other special CC weapons, when attacking vehicles, the wraithlord above could roll 10+d6 or 5+2d6. Sorry I just don't see why this is an issue, it's fairly clear in the rules.

As far as I know when you roll a 6 to hit you get 2D6 for the monstrous creature and an extra D6 plus strength for the rending so thats STR6+2D6+1D6 which is nice.
Thats according to the FAQ V4.01 for tyranids that was produced for the previous nid codx and as far as I know nothing has been said otherwise or updated, So the 3D6 for penetration applies.
Also the rending does not augment strength it simply adds D6 to the penetration roll, it says nothing about adding to the strength of the creature. The creatures strength stays as standard hence for instance a Genestealer rolls a 6 so it gets base strength 4+6 plus the extra D6 its strength stays at 4, subtle difference but valid.
So the Tyrant would get Str6 plus the 2D6 for penetration (which is not a strength augmentation as its strength stays at 6) plus the D6 for rending. A power fist for instance specifically states it doubles the users strength, thats a strength augmentation, Rending claws are not they are an armour penetration augmentation (the claws are so sharp and strong they penetrate armour easily despite strength thats why a puny str4 stealer can rip apart a Landraider)

 

[Loestal]

See, I'm a little confused. In the core book it says rending only ignores armor on a roll of a 6. But the FAQ says rending ignore armor no matter what and you ONLY get the extra d6 vs. vehicles if you roll a 6 instead of always an extra d6. I see people talk around here and it confuses me on what rules I should be using...should I go back to the core book and use those rules since the FAQ was for the old codex? or should I continue to use the FAQ rending rules?

 

[H0urg1ass]

Lash Whip & Bone Sword - Honestly, this makes for a good 'support' Tyrant. This is not for the Tyrant who plans to fly solo around the board. This is for the Tyrant who plans to hit the line at the same time as its gaunts. You get the catalyst benefit for the gaunts. Also, the lash whip is handy to reduce return attacks against the Tyrant. Especially if the Tyrant gets charged. While not necessarily the best choice for a Tyrant who wants to be alone, it does have its place in the Tyranid Army.

Nothing in the Tyranid list of consequence is below I 4. This means that they will at least go simultaneously with the majority of opponents in 40k. That being said, there is no real reason for them to have to "make their attacks back" even if they die before their round of combat.

Yes, the lash whip is handy, but I'm banking on the Tyrants high I and ST to drop my foes before they get to make their attacks, which preemptively gets rid of their attacks. Granted, you won't always kill whatever you are attacking, but I still prefer two sets of Monstrous Creature Scything Talons. More attacks = More Hits = More Wounds = More Dead Enemies "therefore" Scything Talons are the best option for the Hive Tyrant. (Rending claws are absolutely definitely better on non Monstrous Creatures)

Acid Maw - I don't think it's as wonderful as you make it out to be. First, it allows rerolls to wound. Ok, fine and dandy, but with a S6 you're wounding on a 2+ against almost everything except T5 models, like a few characters or bikes. Second, it only works in the first round of combat. It doesn't seem very cost effective to me. Bio-plasma is cheaper and works every round (although it has its own dangers).

I take this because of the overall law of averages. Remember, you have 7 attacks on the charge with my optimal setup, but they aren't all going to hit. Agianst most enemies out there, three of these will miss. That gives you four chances to wound. Now that you are down to only four chances to wound with ONE creature, you had better make sure those wounds take place. I dont' know how many times I've seen two of those four wounds come up with 1's. This aggravates me to no end, and is probably why I dump the extra points on it.

Also, there will be situations out there where you will need to wound on 3's or higher, like with TO 5 or up models. I just like having rerolls of any sort. If there was a 15 point Biomorph that let you reroll attacks, then I'd buy it too. Even for the cost.

Acid Maw - I don't think it's as wonderful as you make it out to be. First, it allows rerolls to wound. Ok, fine and dandy, but with a S6 you're wounding on a 2+ against almost everything except T5 models, like a few characters or bikes. Second, it only works in the first round of combat. It doesn't seem very cost effective to me. Bio-plasma is cheaper and works every round (although it has its own dangers).

I'm 100% positive that the reason they are listed under the same section in the book is because GW is lazy and wanted to conserve writing. I'm without a shadow of a doubt certain that you can take both of these Biomorphs at the same time.

Bio-plasma - I disagree that Acid Maw wins hands down. Acid maw only works for the first round of combat, plus your chances to wound are so great the odds are you won't even need the rerolls. Bio-plasma is an extra attack at S+1. It only hits on a 4+, but you can't hit better than a 3+ in CC anyway so it's not big of a loss. The I increase helps, even with Ad-I. some armies have super high I units, or (like Slaanesh) have I reducing abilities. Bio-plasma will still go first. The disadvantage is that it loses the MC bonuses of ignoring armor and armor pen (although it does technically gain rending if you take RCs). The other disadvantage is that it hits before any of the Tyrant's other attacks. This means an opponent that loses a model can choose the model in btb with the Tyrant, thus preventing the Tyrant's other attacks from occurring. Overall, it's a toss up.

Yes, you are right. This may be a more useful Biomorph than I made it out to be originally, but that's because I've no luck with this thing at all. I'm biased towards it because it doesn't gain the MC benefit and only hits half of the time. Also, if you are in combat with something that has initiative better than a 6, then that Dark Eldar Archon and his Squad have already won the combat. Don't worry about getting in one shot before you go down.

Also, it doesn't "effect every model that the Hive Tyrant is in combat with" Actually, it only affects models that the Tyrant attacks or that attack the Tyrant. It does NOT affect every enemy model in the same combat as the Tyrant. In effect, it only affects the Tyrant (whether the Tyrant hits or is hit).

My statement is still correct. It DOES effect every model that the Hive Tyrant is in combat with. If he is not attacking them in that engagement or they are not attacing him, then he's not in combat with them. See?

BS - I don't know. A single S5 template just doesn't fill me with joy. There are much better ranged weapon options for the Tyrant to take advantage of it's abilities. Sure, the range is nice, as is the large template ... but I disagree it is one of the best options for a ranged tyrant. It has its uses, but it really is much better as a Carnifex weapon.

It doesn't really fill me with any great sense of joy either, but I've found that it works well as the extra weapon on a Tyrant. Especially a slow moving one and here's why: It uses the large blast template (Which just scares the poo out of most opponents), and if you do cause a wound, then they have to check for pinning. Not to mention, you can't get 6 VC shots, so you might as well take a VC and another weapon with the same range to get an extra shot.

Extended Carapace - Can be useful on a ponderous Tyrant, but if you have Guard then most of your hits and wounds should be allocated to them anyway. They only have a 3+ save. You don't really gain much use out of the 2+ save until your guards get eliminated or you get involved in CC. I'd recommend that if you take Guard, save the points and don't use extended carapace.

Yeah, I know you take wounds on majority armor save, but still. One Guard will drop pretty quickly against an army with several lascannons or missile launchers, so it's not too bad of an idea to still attempt to get a save after all your Guards are gone.

You could save the points, which isn't a terrible idea. I'll add something to that effect when I revise the tactica.

Flesh Hooks - You didn't add these to your list. While not quite so useful for their frag grenade ability, they are still useful for their movement ability. Being cheap, and being able to also equip any Guard with them as well, allow your Shooting tyrant (and retinue) to get into any firing position they want, either for LOS or to make the unit un-chargeable.

Ok, good idea. I'll add this one on too. I forgot about it, since I've never played on a single table that had impassable terrain. It just slipped my mind that it's useful for movement purposes too.

 

[Rikimaru]

See, I'm a little confused. In the core book it says rending only ignores armor on a roll of a 6. But the FAQ says rending ignore armor no matter what and you ONLY get the extra d6 vs. vehicles if you roll a 6 instead of always an extra d6. I see people talk around here and it confuses me on what rules I should be using...should I go back to the core book and use those rules since the FAQ was for the old codex? or should I continue to use the FAQ rending rules?

If your refering to the Faq for Hive Tyrant rending, then the Tyrant always ignores armour saves he is a Monstrous creature and they always ignore armor saves. The benefit of Rending for Tyrants is it grants an automatic wound on a roll of 6 irrespective of weapon skill or toughness of the opponent. So your not having to roll say a 4+ to hit then rolling to wound, with implant attack its incredibly usefull against high WS high TGH models.
Certain parts of the FAQ are now redundant but as far as I can see the rending is not, as the rules for rending are universal and the Nid codex did not change that(rending is rending in the old nid codex and is still rending in the new one). So I would say the rending rule in the FAQ applies.

 

[Loestal]

I was looking over the first post again, now correct me if I'm wrong but isn't it true that you can't have Acid Maw and 2 sets of talons?

 

[Phalanx]

You can take 2 sets of talons and acid maw, but you can't take acid maw and bio-plasma.

3 base+ 2ST +1 charge=6 +1 for BP=7. Is there any other way to get 7 attacks with a tyrant than with BP? I don't think so... So why is 7 attacks brought up with the acid maw bit if you can't get 7 attacks with acid maw?

 

[H0urg1ass]

3 base+ 2ST +1 charge=6 +1 for BP=7. Is there any other way to get 7 attacks with a tyrant than with BP? I don't think so... So why is 7 attacks brought up with the acid maw bit if you can't get 7 attacks with acid maw?

Oooops. Both of my degree's are in English Literature, so that's why I let other people correct the math part. Yes, even simple addition is sometimes beyond me, but hey, I get paid to write and other people get paid to wear nerdy glasses, tweed coats and talk with wide dramatic arm movements when discussing calculus formulas (Like my math professer in college, ech).

 

[Loestal]

But the codex says Acid maw counts as a weapon symbiote, and Tyrants can only have 2 symbiotes, so 2 sets of talons + acid maw is too much...or perhaps I'm missing something.

 

[H0urg1ass]

Acid Maw is listed under the Biomorphs section on page 35 in the Codex. Not the weapons section. That's enough reason for me.

 

[Loestal]

But under the Tyrant description it says it...unless I read it wrong, which is possible but I'm pretty sure it does.

 

[dvang]

By the way, I guess I forgot to mention. You have a good post and consolidated some good ideas. I do think, however, that the tactica should mention pretty much everything that can be used, and why it is good and bad. Some new people might not know the differences or the advantages/disadvantage of, say, spinefists on a Tyrant. By listing it, pointing out why it could be useful, and why it isn't, helps them to understand why they should never take it on their tyrant.

Nothing in the Tyranid list of consequence is below I 4. This means that they will at least go simultaneously with the majority of opponents in 40k. That being said, there is no real reason for them to have to "make their attacks back" even if they die before their round of combat.

But there are enemies that go first. For example, one of my opponents plays Slaneesh. That means all my models are -1 I. I have to make sure to purchase an I upgrade to even go simultaneously. I could, however, have a unit or two that I don't spend points for an I upgrade and could then use catalyst. Sure, it might not be the best choice, but it is an option that isn't completely useless.

Also, there will be situations out there where you will need to wound on 3's or higher, like with TO 5 or up models. I just like having rerolls of any sort. If there was a 15 point Biomorph that let you reroll attacks, then I'd buy it too. Even for the cost.

Oh, I'm not saying that Acid Maw is useless. Just pointing out that I don't think it's as clearly better than Bio-Plasma. Bio-plasma isn't the end-all biomorph either. I wasn't suggesting that. It is a useful biomorph in some situations. I suggest just listing the pro's and con's for both and take out the personal comments and let people decide which they like better.

My statement is still correct. It DOES effect every model that the Hive Tyrant is in combat with. If he is not attacking them in that engagement or they are not attacing him, then he's not in combat with them. See?

Ahh, you misread my intent. Assume a Tyrant and a brood of gaunts are in CC with the same squad of SM. When the Tyrant attacks a SM, or a SM model directs an attack against the Tyrant, the SM have an effective WS of 3. When they attack, or are attacked by, the gaunts their WS is their normal 4. The SM are still engaged with the Tyrant, but unless they attack the Tyrant their WS is not affected. A SM model in base to base with a Tyrant and a gaunt model, that directs its attacks at the gaunt, is uneffected by the Toxic Miasma and still has WS 4. In essence, the Toxic Misama does not provide its effects to help friendly models involved in the same combat, only for hitting the Tyrant or being hit by the Tyrant. It's kind of a fine distinction.

It doesn't really fill me with any great sense of joy either, but I've found that it works well as the extra weapon on a Tyrant. Especially a slow moving one and here's why: It uses the large blast template (Which just scares the poo out of most opponents), and if you do cause a wound, then they have to check for pinning. Not to mention, you can't get 6 VC shots, so you might as well take a VC and another weapon with the same range to get an extra shot.

Sure, it's not a bad choice. You aren't hamstringing yourself for taking one, unlike a spinefist or deathspitter. My primary opponent is a Slaneesh army, who are Fearless and thus ignore pinning. I rarely get any use out of the pinning factor. Granted, the BS is a decent weapon. I agree, you don't want to TL a VC. If you really want to sit at long 30+ range and fire then I would agree to taking a BS+VC, even on a Tyrant. Matching ranges are nice. I just think, if you are going to advance at all, taking a TL-Dev plus VC is better. Better S on the TL Dev, and really more chances to affect more models (6 shots rerolling hits and wounds, means likely 4-5 armor saves. It's hard to get that many models under even a large blast template). Maybe against Orks or other enemies who tend to take large masses of squads and have 5+/6+ armor saves a BS might work out better. I'm not saying it's not useful, but at only S5 it can only hurt massed troops or the rears of vehicles. On a Carnifex, at S8, it becomes a massive weapon of power.

Yeah, I know you take wounds on majority armor save, but still. One Guard will drop pretty quickly against an army with several lascannons or missile launchers, so it's not too bad of an idea to still attempt to get a save after all your Guards are gone.

You could save the points, which isn't a terrible idea. I'll add something to that effect when I revise the tactica.

it's nice to have, but it is cost vs effectiveness. If the only MC you have is a single Tyrant, sure you probably want it or Warp Field. All your enemy's heavy weapons (lascannons, MLs, etc) will shoot at it. If you throw a couple Elite or HS 'Fexes, chances are you won't get as many shots directed at your Tyrant. Especially if you have a shooty Tyrant, and CC (or at least advancing shooting) Fexes. The closer that your Fexes get to the enemy, the more shots they tend to direct at them. If you've got extra points or really need to protect your Synapse, go ahead. If you're getting close on points or have a lot of big targets, I'd leave off the extended carapace.

Ok, good idea. I'll add this one on too. I forgot about it, since I've never played on a single table that had impassable terrain. It just slipped my mind that it's useful for movement purposes too.

Yeah, not every board has some. In fact, probably most don't. But, it can come in handy when you need it the most. For only a few points, it's relatively easy to squeeze in. Not a required or NEEDED biomorph, but can be useful. I just thought it should be mentioned in the tactica.

On another note:

As far as I know when you roll a 6 to hit you get 2D6 for the monstrous creature and an extra D6 plus strength for the rending so thats STR6+2D6+1D6 which is nice.
Thats according to the FAQ V4.01 for tyranids that was produced for the previous nid codx and as far as I know nothing has been said otherwise or updated, So the 3D6 for penetration applies.
Also the rending does not augment strength it simply adds D6 to the penetration roll, it says nothing about adding to the strength of the creature. The creatures strength stays as standard hence for instance a Genestealer rolls a 6 so it gets base strength 4+6 plus the extra D6 its strength stays at 4, subtle difference but valid.
So the Tyrant would get Str6 plus the 2D6 for penetration (which is not a strength augmentation as its strength stays at 6) plus the D6 for rending. A power fist for instance specifically states it doubles the users strength, thats a strength augmentation, Rending claws are not they are an armour penetration augmentation (the claws are so sharp and strong they penetrate armour easily despite strength thats why a puny str4 stealer can rip apart a Landraider)

The rules for Monstrous Creatures, rulebook pg 55
"Some Monstrous Creatures have weapons that increase their Strength (such as the Eldar Wraithlord's power fist) or work unusually (like the Dark Eldar Talos). Monstrous creatures without such a special rule roll an additional d6 for armor penetration..."

Rending claws do not increase Strength, but very well could fall under "work unusally". I don't have the DE codex, but I heard that the Dark Eldar Talos gets a modifer to penetration rolls or something. Rending claws do apply a modifier to penetration rolls (+1d6). Therefore, if rending claws are classified under the "work unusually" portion of the MC rules, then MCs with rending claws do not get the additional die to penetration granted to MCs. On Dakka, the majority finally decided that "work unusually" applies to any weapons that modify the armor penetration roll. Since RCs do give an extra d6 to penetration, they are classified as "unusual" in regards to this rule. Thus, it was decided, MCs cannot get 3d6+S armor penetration. A MC with rending claws only gets S+d6 armor penetration. If they roll a 6 to penetrate roll, they then gain an additional d6 (per rending rules) for S+2d6. The only real advantage to RCs on a MC is that a 6 to hit automatically wounds with no roll to wound needed. RCs become good vs Troops but poor against vehicles.

 

[Phalanx]

But under the Tyrant description it says it...unless I read it wrong, which is possible but I'm pretty sure it does.

*checks nids dex* The Acid Maw biomorph is under biomorphs in the tyrant section. I think you read it wrong.

 

[hoya4life3381]

The only time RC is really needed is if you face said talos and wraithlords. Those powerfists hitting back if you don't kill it can be pretty painful. RC/Implant attack is really good only in that situation. Against toughness six, its pretty much even between turning your attacks into rending vs. extra attack from scything.

 

[Bugs_n_Orks]

The rules for Monstrous Creatures, rulebook pg 55
"Some Monstrous Creatures have weapons that increase their Strength (such as the Eldar Wraithlord's power fist) or work unusually (like the Dark Eldar Talos). Monstrous creatures without such a special rule roll an additional d6 for armor penetration..."

Rending claws do not increase Strength, but very well could fall under "work unusally". I don't have the DE codex, but I heard that the Dark Eldar Talos gets a modifer to penetration rolls or something. Rending claws do apply a modifier to penetration rolls (+1d6). Therefore, if rending claws are classified under the "work unusually" portion of the MC rules, then MCs with rending claws do not get the additional die to penetration granted to MCs. On Dakka, the majority finally decided that "work unusually" applies to any weapons that modify the armor penetration roll. Since RCs do give an extra d6 to penetration, they are classified as "unusual" in regards to this rule. Thus, it was decided, MCs cannot get 3d6+S armor penetration. A MC with rending claws only gets S+d6 armor penetration. If they roll a 6 to penetrate roll, they then gain an additional d6 (per rending rules) for S+2d6. The only real advantage to RCs on a MC is that a 6 to hit automatically wounds with no roll to wound needed. RCs become good vs Troops but poor against vehicles.

I certainly agree that getting an extra d6 for armor pen. on a roll of six is unusual, I really don't see how it could be considered usual...

 

[H0urg1ass]

Ok, I added the Psychic Powers list that I had promised. I also went through the list and made some minor tweaks such as adding Flesh Hooks to the Ranged Hive Tyrants list. In fact, I thought dvang worded it well, so I added his suggestion verbatim.

Thanks for your thoughts and keep them coming, I look forward to molding this list into something that any new Tyranid Player can rely on when building his/her first Hive Tyrant.

Oh yeah, I decided to hold off on rewording my stance on Rending Claws until we get some sort of official ruling from GW about how Rending Claws and Tyranid Monstrous creatures work. Their position will drastically change how I feel about equipping this on a Hive Tyrant.

 

[dvang]

Thanks H0urg1ass.

As far as waiting for an official ruling... I wouldn't. I suggest mentioning both sides. GW has been realy bad about FAQ for 4th edition. There still is no FAQ for the new SM codex.

 

[LordCreampuff]

Rending claws do not increase Strength, but very well could fall under "work unusally". I don't have the DE codex, but I heard that the Dark Eldar Talos gets a modifer to penetration rolls or something. Rending claws do apply a modifier to penetration rolls (+1d6). Therefore, if rending claws are classified under the "work unusually" portion of the MC rules, then MCs with rending claws do not get the additional die to penetration granted to MCs. On Dakka, the majority finally decided that "work unusually" applies to any weapons that modify the armor penetration roll. Since RCs do give an extra d6 to penetration, they are classified as "unusual" in regards to this rule. Thus, it was decided, MCs cannot get 3d6+S armor penetration. A MC with rending claws only gets S+d6 armor penetration. If they roll a 6 to penetrate roll, they then gain an additional d6 (per rending rules) for S+2d6. The only real advantage to RCs on a MC is that a 6 to hit automatically wounds with no roll to wound needed. RCs become good vs Troops but poor against vehicles.

You are incorrect with this 100%. If you read the Tyranid FAQ on the games-workshop site it specifically states that the benefits of rending claws are ADDED to the benefits of MC. If the MC rolls a To-Hit of 6 it will either automatically wound with no save (models) or roll 3D6 for armor penetration. With his unmodified strength of a 5 that will toast any vehicle in the game rather easily.

Until they revise the Tyranid FAQ for 4.1 then this is their ruling. This makes Rending Claws great if you're gonna go tank hunting with your winged Tyrant!

 

[MDQRoxy]

i do not see why rending claws would make the tyrant weaker vs vehicles, or perhaps you can claim your not useing your rending claws vs. tanks and such, just as you can choose which weapon to use during the fireing phase if you have multiple weapons