Librarium Online Forums banner

Which one is better???

  • Scything Talons + Bonesword and Lash Whip

    Votes: 12 40.0%
  • Scything Talons + Scything Talons

    Votes: 18 60.0%
1 - 19 of 19 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
90 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
I'm a quite experienced Tyranid player, but with the new codex, all my believes were trashed away.

I'm pretty sure that I want to include an Hive Tyrant, just for the usefulness of the Hive Commander option, but this model has become SOOOOO much expensive.

To try to level down her cost (MC in my armylist are all females ;) ) I'm trying to equip her with the cheaper stuff. The first weapon is Scything Talons and second one is...??

Let's see pros and cons:

Scything Talon + Bonesword and Lash Whip :
pros: Enemy in base contact have I=1. Possibility of ID.
cons: Tyrant has I=5 and will hit first most of the enemy models and together the few remaining ones. ID probability is lame.

2 x Scything Talons :
pros: Reroll to hit everything. Reroll to hit those squishy vehicles!!!
cons: with AC=8 she will hit almost everybody with 3+ (not really needing those second pair of ST).


Summing up it seems that ST+BW/LW are better for character killing and ST+ST are better for vehicle hunting...

What do you guys think??
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,138 Posts
Lash and Bone is totally useless. Really, totally useless. As you say its faster than a lot of things anyway, and whip wont do a lot in terms of slowing things down, and the bonesword is quite simply, terrible on a tyrant. He ignores saves already, and the ID will almost never come into play. In reality, if your up agianst something worth ID'ing its either Immune to ID anyway or has a sky high leadership and so the odds to fail are tiny. The only exceptions i can think of are Nobs/nob bikers, ork warbosses and weirdly Tyranid MCs, but theres better things to deal with them.

To make the ID vaible, your looking at leadership lowering, which is hard to get thogether at the right time, and just makes it more and more expensive to pull off.

Your far better off with tallons and just ensuring every attack hits home than trying to get lucky on the bonesword. Never ever take it on tyrants.
 

·
Hive Fleet Pandora
Joined
·
5,068 Posts
Normally I'd go for 2x talons or 2x TL-devourers, but bone+lash does have its uses, especially against the faster armies like eldar, dark eldar and even slaanesh chaos. Best of all, it works great against those furious charging beasts like beserkers, khornate daemons, ragnar bloodclaws and death company, not to mention daemonettes, howling banshees and wyches. It's plenty useful in the right situations, but generally talons have slightly more utility IMO as most of the competitive players play mech.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,349 Posts
BS+LW are also useful when in a multiple combat. Sure, the Hive Tyrant might usually always strike first, but will your Guard, Termies, Gargoyles, Mawlocks, Tervigons or CFexes? (Notice, there is a distinction between striking first and simultaneously)

Still, circumstantially beneficial at best.

I'd say neither.. dual TL Devourers are your best friend.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
90 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Looks like people still love the Dual Twin Linked Devourers...

I tryed to modify the poll to add also this option, but I can't manage to modify it :(

Don't you think that a Dakka Tyrant is overcosted, considering also that he can't have enhanced senses, and if he use one of his psychic powers he can fire with only one of his TL devourers??
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,138 Posts
Fair enough on the whip, but you cant defend that bonesword, ask any eldar player about the diresword, theyll tell you the same thing.

And personally, im not convinced by the new dakka tyrant, id rather get off a paryoxism or a leech essence, but is still worth it if you can spare the points, and dont miss the powers, then go for it.
 

·
Supreme Evil Overlord
Joined
·
4,873 Posts
Off course he's overcosted, the same goes for the carnifex, a small price increase would have balanced them a bit but with their urrent costing their both not feasible in games of 1500 or less, paying almost the price of a landraider just for a winged tyrant it just asking too much.
 

·
Blood Boy
Joined
·
3,643 Posts
Off course he's overcosted, the same goes for the carnifex, a small price increase would have balanced them a bit but with their urrent costing their both not feasible in games of 1500 or less, paying almost the price of a landraider just for a winged tyrant it just asking too much.
Any Hive Tyrant with decent toys is as much as Landraider now, or more.

I thought that everybody would love the bonesword and lashwhip, scything talons do cough up rerolls but they are rather bland. Also those rerolls can be obtained by getting old adversary, the benefits of the bonesword and lashwhip can then be used too. I like the bonesword and lashwhip option. It is like in the prievious codex primarily for the lashwhip really. However combine a bonesword with an implant attack and it can cause instant death in two different ways.

Boneswords can also dish out instant death to two or more different models in one turn, chew up Ogryns for example. One test only for each model though. I think the lashwhip is good if high initiative characters show up. Without it Daemonettes and other similar types will kill any Hive Tyrant easily. It is also good at reducing initiative for other models too. The bonesword and lashwhip also look cool, most of the swarm doesn't have anything like that.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,349 Posts
Unfortunately, there are very few units that a Bonesword can threaten with multiple ID's. Ogryn's for example, are all kitted the same. Unless your Hive Tyrant inflicts four or more wounds, all of the wounds are going on one model. And for that matter, the model would be dead anyways, and the fourth wound would cause a single ID test to be made.

The only ability I am aware of that deals with Initiative (aside from striking order) is Acid Blood. But with that, the enemy unit must take an initiative test for each wound caused, not the enemy model which inflicted it. I'm unsure how that'd work, exactly, but I suspect it'd be similar to allocating wounds -- in which case those models in base contact would matter for nothing unless the wounds were allocate to them. I could be wrong, though. I cannot see in my rulebook how this would work, exactly..

Implant attack + Bone Swords could be quite fun, though, if you face many multi-wound opponents. Particularly other Nids.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
90 Posts
Discussion Starter · #10 ·
I also thought about something else.

Now that you can't equip your Hive Tyrant with Frag Grandaes or similar, when she assaults a unit in cover she strikes with Initiave 1. With the Lash Whip she'll be able to strike together with 5/10 enemy models (depending on the base size).

Usefull only when you think she'll be wiped out by the enemy attack otherwise(who has few wounds left???)...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
286 Posts
Personaly im going with the bone and lash. Not because i think there better but because I want my tyrant to have the heavy venom cannon and a single pair of scything dosn't do much. On a winged tyrant I would defenately run 2 scything tallons though.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,300 Posts
a tyrant hits anything up to including WS7 on a 3+ which encompasses almost all the models in the game. now...

2XST = 88% of attacks hit on 3+
BS+LW = 66% of attacks hit on 3+

both weapon use the same strength but i will use an example toughness of 4 because its a common one....
S6 wounds T4 on 2+ which = .83.33%

2XST = 73.3% of the attacks hit & wound
BSLW = 55% of the attacks hit and wound

here is where i make my point, a bonesword ignores armour saves, so 55% of its attacks will cause unsaved wounds (and sometimes instant death). but what about the 73.3%ST??? lets just see how they go against armour

2+ save means 16.66% of rolls will fail. therefore attacks from 2XST will cause 12.2% unsaved wounds
3+ save means 33.33% of rolls will fail. therefore attacks from 2XST will cause 24.4% unsaved wounds
4+ save means 50%........ therefore 36.6% unsaved wounds
5+ save means 66.6%..... therefore 48.8% unsaved wounds
6+ save means 83.3%..... therefore 61.1% unsaved wounds
no save means 100%.......therefore 73.3% unsaved wounds

so the only time 2XST has more killing potential is when the enemy has a 6+ save or worse and when you consider what models have saves like that, why the hell would you use a hive tyrant to kill them!!?? on top of that, with a bonesword you have a chance to cause instant death and with a lashwhip your enemy gets I1. also, you might argue that 2XST is better against vehicles due to its better chance to hit, but if the vehicle was still it wont make a difference. and if you have BSLW you have space for a ranged weapon aswell.

so, its pretty clear that a bonesword and lashwhip + ST is better than 2 lots of ST. and the only thing that would make 2XST better, is if it made the Tyrant cost less points.
 

·
Hive Fleet Pandora
Joined
·
5,068 Posts
LOL....funny. Nice mathhammering, but the hive tyrant is a monstrous creatures so he ignores armor saves anyways.


D'oh! Got ninja'd. :terror:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
14 Posts
:D

But yeah Roboute check page 51 of the 40k Rulebook, under the Assault heading.

Because of this, the power weapon aspect of the bonesword is redundant, and therefore your maths is not relevant to the Tyrant.
It is still relevant however, to warriors.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
90 Posts
Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Mathammer:

2xST will hit 88,89% of the times
ST+BSLW will hit 77,78% of the times

wounding and armor saves are the same in both cases, so it's useless to analyze them.

2xST are much more usefull against vehicles, while, IMO, ST+BLSW are much better against heavy troops. Combine the second choiche with Acid Blood and you will have the perfect heavy troops killer.

And the model look much cooler with ST+BLSW!!! :D :D :D
 

·
I am a free man!
Joined
·
4,941 Posts
The reason to take the bonesword/lash whip combo over dual scything talons has everything to do with the lash whip and nothing to do with the bonesword.

The lash whip means you can assault into terrain and get your hits in. Otherwise you will always let the enemy go first.

Instant death only matters against models that are vulnerable to it. 90+% of the models in the game don't give a crap about Instant Death because they only have 1 wound anyway, and losing that wound is going to kill them before you even bother testing for ID.

Meanwhile, there is an entire army immune to ID (Daemons) and several potent and commonly fielded multi-wound models are also Eternal Warriors, so causing ID means nothing to them, too.

Instant Death sounds great, but it's really quite overrated. The only time I care about it is on my Prime. I give it a pair of boneswords because I want to give it power-weapon attacks for cheap. (Note that the bonesword/lash whip combo costs more points. There's a reason for that!) It makes opponents unreasonably fear for their HQs, but that's just an added bonus.
 
1 - 19 of 19 Posts
Top