Librarium Online Forums banner

1 - 15 of 15 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
76 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
So im in the process of creating my own Iron Hands Codex. I have done this because i am sick of not being represented in the Space Marines Codex. This is what i have created thus far using some information i have found online and several codex's to pull ideas from. Let me know what your thoughts are. I'm sure my point costs probably need to be adjusted. also if you think of some other neat ideas let me know!!
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,457 Posts
Frankly, it reads like a fanboy codex.

I don't see why you can't do an Iron Hands army with the Vanilla codex anyways, to be honest. The Iron Hands are so massively different from a codex chapter that C:SM doesn't apply to them. Just paint/model them appropriately, and take a couple extra dreadnoughts.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
76 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Thats no fun though, i dont play in tournaments. I love playing fluffy games with lots of story added in. The vanilla marines codex almost completely leaves out Iron Hands who are drastically different than other chapters. So i wanted to make a codex that would really add the Iron Hands flavor to it. it might be fanboy but i find nothing wrong with being fluffy. Personally i think playing just for competition kills the whole game.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
194 Posts
I'm not sure I agree with your assertion that the Iron Hands are not represented in the Space Marine Codex, true there is not an Iron Hands Special Character but the Chapters organisation does not differ significantly enough from the Codex Astrates to warrant the changes your Codex brings into play.

There are three major deviations I can think of that differentiate the Iron Hands from a pure Codex Force.

Instead of companies they have Clans, each of which could be thought of as a Chapter in miniature. They recruit independently from the rest of the Clans, they maintain their own armoury and have their own Veterans. This doesn’t affect the Force Organisation Chart or building an army list.

They do not have a Chapter Master, instead the Chapter is ruled by a Council of Representatives from each Clan. In terms of your HQ choices this doesn’t stop you from using the Chapter Master entry, you can refluff him as the Clan Chieftain or Council Representative easily enough.

Techmarines and Chaplains are one and the same in the Iron Hands, known as the Iron Fathers. This would have made for an ideal Special Character in the Codex, and is in my opinion the only unit you really need to concentrate on developing and playtesting for use with your regular opponents.

Other idiosyncrasies of the Chapter such as their predilection towards bionics would I feel be better represented visually rather than conferring the Feel No Pain rule to characters. Which brings me to my next concern with this list, points cost and playtesting.

How much playtesting has this list undertaken at this point to determine the correct points cost for your special rules like Bionics?

For example the basic Tactical Squad costs five points over the Codex Space Marines one. The difference is you have given the Sergeant Bionics and the accompanying Feel No Pain rule. Are you sure on the battlefield that is only worth 5 points?

Your Scouts on the other hand seem to gain two new special rules at no extra cost which seems to be very wrong. "Tag-alongs" especially seems to grant your vehicles a significant advantage in an assault over other vehicles, especially against Power-Fists and other low Initiative attacks so I would expect such a unit to come at a premium compared to the vanilla unit from Codex Space Marines.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
76 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 ·
It hasen't gone under any play testing yet because i wanted peoples thoughts on some aspects before I brought it to that level. The deal with the feel no pain was for sgt.s only. That was a point cost decided by someone else so i just stuck to it, it may be something i consider raising. The tag-a-long trait was more or less just something to make the game more fun, i didnt think of it as overpowered at the time and i though i had even nerfed them a bit compared to normal scouts but i may not have on accident.

I'm surprised that neither of you guys think they deserve their own codex. of the founding chapters they are the only one without a special character or their own codex. my thought was to somewhat combine them with the Ad Mech and make a brand new play style out of them. again im not looking for anything remotely competitive, im looking for a fair but fun codex that accents a machine loving chapter of space marines. I know i could stick to the vanilla marines as i have been but there is really only one or two lists i could run that is in any way close to the iron hands. i took on making the Iron Hands codex to just go out on a limb and make something really original.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
194 Posts
It hasen't gone under any play testing yet because i wanted peoples thoughts on some aspects before I brought it to that level. The deal with the feel no pain was for sgt.s only. That was a point cost decided by someone else so i just stuck to it, it may be something i consider raising. The tag-a-long trait was more or less just something to make the game more fun, i didnt think of it as overpowered at the time and i though i had even nerfed them a bit compared to normal scouts but i may not have on accident.
You really do need to consider the competitive aspects of army list design if you want to build a fair and balanced codex. This will involve looking at these changes and thinking about how they affect play. Feel No Pain effectively doubles the survivability of the Sergeant against any AP 4+ hit, and gives him a save against anything that would normally ignore his armour up to Str 7.

You may not want to play competitively, but your opponents are going to want a fighting chance if they play against you, and if you build an unfair codex people are not going to want to play against it and that will be the end of your grand experiment.

My advice (and others may disagree) is to try developing one unit at a time. Start with the standard Codex Space Marine and alter a unit and its points cost and playtest that, and get other Space Marine players to playtest that unit. By doing it this way you will have a frame of reference for how much a rule tweak effects that individual unit.

Slowly as you build up a set of altered units that can form their own codex you can play with these together to see how well they work together and refine the overall list as appropriate.

I'm surprised that neither of you guys think they deserve their own codex. of the founding chapters they are the only one without a special character or their own codex. my thought was to somewhat combine them with the Ad Mech and make a brand new play style out of them. again im not looking for anything remotely competitive, im looking for a fair but fun codex that accents a machine loving chapter of space marines. I know i could stick to the vanilla marines as i have been but there is really only one or two lists i could run that is in any way close to the iron hands. i took on making the Iron Hands codex to just go out on a limb and make something really original.
I'm not saying they don't deserve their own list, in fact I think you should continue to work on this and playtest it appropriately and I completely agree that they deserve a special character.

I think GW missed out on an opportunity to expand on the Iron Hands by not including rules for an Iron Father in Codex Space Marines. I would love to see this oversight corrected.

I know i could stick to the vanilla marines as i have been but there is really only one or two lists i could run that is in any way close to the iron hands. i took on making the Iron Hands codex to just go out on a limb and make something really original.
This is where I don't follow your argument. How are you only able to represent the Iron Hands with a couple of Codex Space Marine builds?

It was my understanding that the Iron Hands were a flexible Chapter that didn't have any particular preference for one form of combat or the other, as opposed to the close combat orientated Blood Angels or the rapid bike strikes of the White Scars.

Is there a major piece of background fiction I am missing that explains this, or is this your personal fiction for your Iron Hands Clan?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
76 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 ·
I read the book Iron Hands and have researched much of the common stories floating the internet about them. the aspect that I really like about them is their unnatural alliance with the Cult of Mechanicus. I want an army that has many units who can fix vehicles so that I am not running around with one or two units who are fixing things. besides i think with the vanilla marines its not even worth trying to fix vehicles. I would love to run lots of dreadnoughts but not just the normal dreadnought, iron clad or venerable. I want a special character for my venerable dreadnoughts like Warleader Bannus or Talumech.

I also like like how Iron hands sacrifice their personality for reason and logic. Half of their brain is removed overtime to fit augmentations that allows higher memory storage. because of this they seem to have a better relationship and communication with the machine spirits which I want to play a bigger role.

I think you're right about the feel no pain rule i was thinking of making Bionics act more or less like feel no pain but the roll would be on a 6+. this also makes me wonder whether i should give it to all of my troops. The points cost will go up but i think it might make it less of an issue for opposing players. i will test this out.
 

·
Son of LO
Joined
·
3,930 Posts
Writing quality is overall poor. There are some odd additions (a non-psyker Dreadnought with a force weapon, power fists that inflict Instant Death, FNP on just the sergeants) that aren't so much unbalanced as just...you know, inexplicable. Why do power fists need instant death when they're already S8? How does the non-psyker Dread use his force weapon? Stormravens in the list don't make sense since at the moment they're still BA/GK exclusive - that may change, but it's still odd that Iron Hands need them. You even retain the "bloodstrike" missiles.

I have two contrary objections to the draft as is. One is that it's really kind of unnecessary to do a full codex write-up; to be perfectly honest, you can make a fluff-solid Iron Hands army using the vanilla codex and a Master of the Forge. Making a whole new fandex just seems like you want toys to play with.

The second is that if you are going to make a full fandex, you need to do a lot more work than you have. This is really just a Space Marine codex with additions, as far as I can tell. There's no additions that shout out "I am an interesting and creative idea" to me (except maybe Dreadnought squadrons.) You've got too many 200+ points special characters, this weird FNP-sergeants thing that just sounds unworkable (having Techmarine sergeants with Blessing of the Omnissiah would be cooler) and some confusing special rules that mostly just duplicate the effect of other special rules - "Machinae Potentia Animi" just grants Power of the Machine Spirit, which begs the question of why you didn't just make PotMS a purchasable vehicle upgrade. And yet most of the codex is just the same as C: SM.

There's a "land behemoth," which sounds like a Titan, and which has no rules or fluff to speak of. There's a ten-man Razorback (isn't that just a Rhino with a plasma gun?) and jetbike squads (why jetbikes? They're so rare in the fluff that the entire Ravenwing has like, one) the Stormraven has no price and no upgrades, conversion beamers in Devastator squads, (!!!) and these fluff-less "Pre-Heresy Model 2116" guns that are like D3-shot lascannons (why would I pay 35 points for a lascannon when for 15 more, I could get one to three lascannons? Buying one and hiding him in a squad of meat shields is more cost-effective and more durable than buying three lascannons.)

It's just really, really unpolished.
 

·
Junior Member
Joined
·
3,395 Posts
You might be interested in the character "Vaylund Cal" from the imperial armour 10 book - he's a master of the forge who grants suitably modeled (bionic) devastators the FnP rule and swaps chapter tactics for fearlessness.

Combine with the Siege Assault Vanguard from the same book (it's an alternate list structure for the vanilla codex) for things like siege mantlets and voila - Iron Hands.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
76 Posts
Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Actually I find that the Stormraven works well into Iron Hands lore if you read the background it says that it is reintroduced Ad Mech technology. Not many chapters have this technology yet. Because of the Iron Hands alliance with the Ad Mech i would assume they would be introduced to this new technology much faster than most chapters. I do have many 200+ char. but this is in part because i get an idea in my head and i just want to keep it going. I can probably tone down Stronos a bit but what i was going for was trying to make his gauntlets special because it was a relic passed down from the primarch. I do however like your idea about techmarines as sergeants. In my next draft the bionics ability will be greatly different.

This is of course my first draft so thank you for pointing out the poorly written piece, in the future i will put in a caption warning all douche bags not to read. I'm sorry not everyone can be perfect on the first try, to be honest i just wanted to put it up here to see if people could help me out with ideas and critiques but it seems like i'm getting more of a "why would you bother making anything non-GW?" My point in doing this is because i wanted to make something that represented a new way of playing modeled after the Iron Hands and the Ad Mech. to be quite frank with you all i couldn't give a Sh*t whether you think the codex is a good idea or not or whether i'm represented well by vanilla marines because its too late i made this one and now i just want help bringing it closer to a final copy.

Thanks A.T. i'll look into it!
 

·
Returning Lawman!
Joined
·
1,712 Posts
Please calm down everyone, we want a calm, rational discussion. By all means put forward opinions, but try to be a little less quick to leap at eachothers throats.
I'll be keeping my eye on this thread.

~Lawman
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
194 Posts
This is of course my first draft so thank you for pointing out the poorly written piece, in the future i will put in a caption warning all douche bags not to read. I'm sorry not everyone can be perfect on the first try, to be honest i just wanted to put it up here to see if people could help me out with ideas and critiques but it seems like i'm getting more of a "why would you bother making anything non-GW?" My point in doing this is because i wanted to make something that represented a new way of playing modeled after the Iron Hands and the Ad Mech. to be quite frank with you all i couldn't give a Sh*t whether you think the codex is a good idea or not or whether i'm represented well by vanilla marines because its too late i made this one and now i just want help bringing it closer to a final copy.
It's true neither ze_poodle or I particulalry feel that the Iron Hands need a codex, but if you go back and read our replies you can see that in every one we have tried to provide you with critical feedback on this codex. We are asking you design questions that you do need to consider if you want this project to be successful in producing a viable army list that other people will take seriously.

Nobody expects perfection on the first try, but if you present something to the community asking for their thoughts then you need to expect and accept the fact that there is going to be critical feedback. They are not being "douche bags", they are not trying to make you feel bad or upset you. They want you to succeed, they like your concept enough to take the time to read your list and let you know how they believe it can be improved.

It's up to you to look at their criticism and their reason for it and then either refine your work based on this feedback or provide a justification for why it should stay the same.

By responding to criticism with a very public hissy fit you do not help your cause. People are not going to take you or your project very seriously if you make a habit of this. Likely folk will just ignore you and won't bother to help you in future, after all why put the effort in if you are just going to blow off any suggestion they make because you think they are being mean.
 

·
The Future
Joined
·
4,848 Posts
Basically what most of the comments boil down to is "if you want an Iron Hands codex start from scratch don't just add stuff to C:UM" and "if you want something give a reason and don't just add it in".

Compare BA and SW - they both have new stuff, but there's also a lot that they're missing from the vanilla codex. If you want something in, but aren't sure how much it should cost put a ? after it or overprice it and THEN make it cheaper after playtesting.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
76 Posts
Discussion Starter · #14 ·
It's true neither ze_poodle or I particulalry feel that the Iron Hands need a codex, but if you go back and read our replies you can see that in every one we have tried to provide you with critical feedback on this codex. We are asking you design questions that you do need to consider if you want this project to be successful in producing a viable army list that other people will take seriously.

Nobody expects perfection on the first try, but if you present something to the community asking for their thoughts then you need to expect and accept the fact that there is going to be critical feedback. They are not being "douche bags", they are not trying to make you feel bad or upset you. They want you to succeed, they like your concept enough to take the time to read your list and let you know how they believe it can be improved.

It's up to you to look at their criticism and their reason for it and then either refine your work based on this feedback or provide a justification for why it should stay the same.

By responding to criticism with a very public hissy fit you do not help your cause. People are not going to take you or your project very seriously if you make a habit of this. Likely folk will just ignore you and won't bother to help you in future, after all why put the effort in if you are just going to blow off any suggestion they make because you think they are being mean.
I didn’t mean to explode like that but its discouraging when i try to look for help and the message i receive begins with such negativity. I really liked some of your critiques and i have decided to use some of them on my next draft. I'm not angry at all the suggestions that have been said and in fact I’ve embraced most of them to some extent (though perhaps i haven’t shown you where and which ones yet). I guess i was just upset that some would give criticism in a negative way. I wasn't in a hissy fit just sort of disappointed that I would receive such negativity.

Thank you all for your help i will work on the next draft and begin some play testing.

If anyone else has any suggestions please let me know.

ps [MENTION=70111]Jimmy Carmine[/MENTION]- apology accepted, i apologize as well
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
76 Posts
Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Basically what most of the comments boil down to is "if you want an Iron Hands codex start from scratch don't just add stuff to C:UM" and "if you want something give a reason and don't just add it in".

Compare BA and SW - they both have new stuff, but there's also a lot that they're missing from the vanilla codex. If you want something in, but aren't sure how much it should cost put a ? after it or overprice it and THEN make it cheaper after playtesting.
Your right i have been thinking about this, I want to get rid of stuff from the vanilla codex but I'm not sure what stuff would make sense to get rid of, I was thinking honestly about getting rid of any biker squads. the only bikes would be for the Iron Father. My next thought was to get rid of Terminator squads and only have them as upgrades for sergeants or as perhaps a special retinue for Stronos.

I'm not sure who said it, it was awhile ago but someone mentioned something about a 10 person razorback, that was a typo i meant to keep the capacity the same as a normal razorback but i messed that up.

What i'm really curious about is what you guys thought of Magos Thule. I pictured converting a penetent engine and having him bringing vehicles back to life but certainly one would have to be really carefull lest he explodes or potentially gives kill points or objectives to the enemy.
 
1 - 15 of 15 Posts
Top